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What do you think of this comment


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Poll: What do you think of this comment (7 member(s) have cast votes)

Which way should the comment I posted be interpreted

  1. Way A) It's optional, but by that same logic, so is pretty much everything else. It's stupid logic and a cop-out. (5 votes [71.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 71.43%

  2. Way B) It's optional, and it's just that simple. You don't have to deal with it if you don't want to, so ignore it like anything else you don't like without making a big deal out of it. (2 votes [28.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

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#1 Fire Blazer

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 02:24 AM

I can't think of a better topic title right now, sorry

 

So essentially I said that saying face-rubbing and the bathhouse scenes and such were "optional" is a pretty lame cop-out for not wanting to hear anyone's criticism of it (or even hearing that they dislike it) because that's how people were using that excuse, not to mention it's not really optional because it has an actual effect on the gameplay, atmosphere, and immersion (which you can argue but please don't be stupid and get into that; just respect that is can very legitimately be seen as not being optional and even if it WAS completely optional, it's STILL valid of being critiqued, like anything else; after all, playing the game at all is being optional)

 

now one of the responses was this

 

 

Thing is, optional is what it is. It's a fact. You don't have to increase your bonds with your units. It's like FE:A, you don't have to marry anyone. You don't have to grind. You don't have to play on Classic. You don't have to play on the harder difficulties. You don't have to 100% it.
See what I'm getting at.

 

Now this can be interpreted in two ways:

 

A) You're right, it's optional. But so are all of these other things. However, my point is that you're right and that just because you can technically avoid it, it doesn't mean it's not a legitimate part of the game that can be critiqued/had an opinion about.

 

B) Dude, it's optional. Just like all these other things that you don't have to do if you don't like them. You see what I'm getting it? Face-rubbing is also optional so clearly you should tip-toe around it and just deal with it without saying anything

 

Now, I want to make a point that the point of this discussion isn't really to say whether or not face-rubbing is bad. (First of all, most of us will probably say it's not the kind of feature we like having in our Fire Emblem game, no matter how insignificant people play it off as, so it's probably not going to be much of a discussion here; sorry to anyone who legitimately likes it, but I know my fellow forum members well enough to know they aren't going to get excited over this, lol.) The point is that a lot of people can't handle people's dislike of certain elements of FEif and the direction it is going and are going all-out in order to avoid the problem and dismiss other people's comments on it, often times with cop-out statements: in other words, there is a WHOLE lot of damage control, and there are some people condoning this which is making it worse due to the mob mentality (if person A respects person X and person X has Y response to topic Z, then person A is very likely to also have Y response to topic Z, due to topic X; and then person B sees person A following person X and is compelled to do the same without thinking for themselves, etc. etc. until you get a lot of persons with a lot of letters, lol).

 

Anyway, tell me what you think and how you would interpret this response to my original argument. Try to keep the discussion respectful and intelligent since this is a relatively serious topic (something I try to stay away from because I'm lazy and people are way too sensitive, but I don't think we'll have any problems here XD inb4Mercuriusmakesanegativecommentabouthowwedon'thaveenoughpeopleforanydramatostart).

 


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#2 arimibn

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 02:54 AM

I don't really like the poll choices. Lol 

Yes. It's optional, but so long as it's just a minimal feature of the game, I don't see it as a big deal. I do think calling it "unnecessary" is a valid criticism of it though. I don't see the point of it. If it works similar to Pokemonamie, it's a useful feature, but not so integral that you can't complete the game without it.

 

But I don't think saying it being optional is a cop out. This being optional isn't the same thing as 100%ing being optional.

 

When I say it's optional, I mean that it's optional to experiencing and completing the game's story.

 

Technically, breathing is optional, but if you want to live, you have to do it. Going to see a movie? That's not required for you to live. That's optional. There is you want to enjoy it, not taking anything away from you if you don't.

 

So yeah, I see the face rubbing thing as completely optional. Not in a cop out way.


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#3 Snow

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 03:53 AM

Well I think it A. Depends on what the optional feature is, and B. How prevalent/important it is in the game/towards the experience of the game. Like, from what I understand, marrying people is indeed optional in FEif but you're missing out on a huge part of the game if you don't do it. The "Classic Mode" example is somewhat more applicable since you can play the game without touching it and not miss anything.

I don't really know which category of the poll the face rubbing falls into for me atm, depends on how big a part of the game it is. I would really prefer if it wasn't in the game but that probably won't happen. I'm gonna vote option A for now. That being said I think that the poll options are somewhat I think that the options are somewhat vague/inaccurate, since yes EVERYTHING about a game, even playing it is optional, but there are things that you won't care about, say a mini game that you never have to play and might not even run into if you play the game normally, compared to a key side feature of the game, like the marrying systems in FE:A and FE4.


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#4 Cero

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 04:04 AM

Well, I can easily tell the intention of the comment is option B, but the argument and delivery is option A. I REALLY hate the "it's optional" argument. Just because something is optional does not make it free from criticism and it doesn't stop it from potentially hurting the game.

 

One of the best quotes I've heard about optional things in games is this (not 100% on the wording) "Just because something is optional and doesn't affect you doesn't mean that it is good. The longer the feature exists in the series, the more likely it is to becoming integral to the gameplay." And there are two huge examples of this in Fire Emblem. One is reclassing, while it was present in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery it had no drawbacks for not using it. Mastery of the system could allow to make more out of your units, but ignoring does not affect you at all. Now take Awakening where there is a clear downside to not using reclass. If you don't use reclass in Awakening then your unit misses out of more levels and skills. It is always better to use reclass then it is to not (unless you need a certain weapon rank, but this example is extremely situational). Another example of this is the Avatar character, but this is self explanatory with how it started as a sort of surrogate main character(?) to now being the main character of the newest game. And I'm just gonna say that the Avatar character has been done horribly in both 12 and 13 and have no faith in IS to do it well.


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#5 ^Leo^

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 04:12 AM

voted A, but i'm not quite 100% on board with it. i'm somewhere between. if you miss out on something big by not using it then there's no reason to call it optional. you're just ignoring a facet of the gameplay at that point. casual mode/phoenix mode however are optional. these you can choose not to use, and not miss a thing by not using them. and the same goes in the other direction, there's no penalties or bonuses for playing classic mode. now if the face rubbing boosts your characters stats(does it? i didn't read anything on that) then i would have to complain...loudly. making something as silly as that an integral part of FE just doesn't seem right to me, and calling it optional is just a way of saying you don't have an argument for it being there.



#6 Mercurius

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 09:02 AM

I think that people who want to 100% a game have no business whatsoever complaining about what they would have to do for that. They know that they are out to do as much as they possibly can. The value of content stops mattering beyond how much % it adds to becoming 100%.

 

I really think the only real problem with this kind of content is the discussion that it would bring about. I hate skimming posts from new fans constantly complaining about how there's no gay S supports in Awakening for instance. I doubt it would be hard to ignore otherwise, and this is coming from someone who generally thinks "fuck you" to the people that offer ignoring something as a solution.

 

 

sorry to anyone who legitimately likes it, but I know my fellow forum members well enough to know they aren't going to get excited over this, lol.

YOU DARE CLAIM THE ABILITY TO SEE TSUBAKI BLUSH AFTER GETTING FACEPETTED IS INSIGNIFICANT? YOU WON'T BE SAYING THAT WHEN I'M SHOVING NAGINATAS DOWN YOUR TROOPS' THROATS, NOHR SCOUNDREL!!

 

It's not anything I'm really hyped about but it's hilariously out of place enough for me to like having it around. That would be even more of the case if it did become particularly meaningful to the core gameplay, because face-rubbing to get stat boosts and so on makes me imagine the general of the military acting like they're in some kind of daycare center FOR ENTIRELY PRACTICAL PURPOSES THAT WILL TURN THEIR TROOPS INTO EVEN STRONGER BADASSES. The initial reactions were great too, "W-wait...Fire Emblem Amie? Why...even..." I place almost zero value on immersion though.

 

One of the best quotes I've heard about optional things in games is this (not 100% on the wording) "Just because something is optional and doesn't affect you doesn't mean that it is good. The longer the feature exists in the series, the more likely it is to becoming integral to the gameplay."

What you think this is a problem in Fire Emblem? Go play an organic(MMO, MOBA, TCG, etc.) game and see just how good it is for us. Fucking static game privilege. #PowerCreep


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#7 Fire Blazer

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 05:55 PM

Keep in mind the point was not "which do you feel" but rather "how should the comment be interpreted". It was written in a way where I'm kind of supposed to draw my own conclusion about how the commenter felt and I couldn't decide if they were with me (saying that "it's optional" is really a shallow excuse to not want to hear any criticisms) or against me (that it's optional and anyone who feels negatively about it is being stupid because it's clearly not worthy of being regarded in such a manner).

 

I can't respond to all the posts (too much to do) so I'm just going to do a little.

 

Well, I can easily tell the intention of the comment is option B, but the argument and delivery is option A. I REALLY hate the "it's optional" argument. Just because something is optional does not make it free from criticism and it doesn't stop it from potentially hurting the game.

 

One of the best quotes I've heard about optional things in games is this (not 100% on the wording) "Just because something is optional and doesn't affect you doesn't mean that it is good. The longer the feature exists in the series, the more likely it is to becoming integral to the gameplay." And there are two huge examples of this in Fire Emblem. One is reclassing, while it was present in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery it had no drawbacks for not using it. Mastery of the system could allow to make more out of your units, but ignoring does not affect you at all. Now take Awakening where there is a clear downside to not using reclass. If you don't use reclass in Awakening then your unit misses out of more levels and skills. It is always better to use reclass then it is to not (unless you need a certain weapon rank, but this example is extremely situational). Another example of this is the Avatar character, but this is self explanatory with how it started as a sort of surrogate main character(?) to now being the main character of the newest game. And I'm just gonna say that the Avatar character has been done horribly in both 12 and 13 and have no faith in IS to do it well.

 

I mostly agree with what you say but I don't get the first sentence. The intention of his comment was B (so is that what you voted) but the argument and deliver is A? so is the person practically contradicting himself or what, I don't even >_<

 

voted A, but i'm not quite 100% on board with it. i'm somewhere between. if you miss out on something big by not using it then there's no reason to call it optional. you're just ignoring a facet of the gameplay at that point. casual mode/phoenix mode however are optional. these you can choose not to use, and not miss a thing by not using them. and the same goes in the other direction, there's no penalties or bonuses for playing classic mode. now if the face rubbing boosts your characters stats(does it? i didn't read anything on that) then i would have to complain...loudly. making something as silly as that an integral part of FE just doesn't seem right to me, and calling it optional is just a way of saying you don't have an argument for it being there.

 

did you vote based on how you feel or how you interpreted the person's comment? also I agree on phoenix mode not really having an effect but I think that the other features are not quite so straightforward and certainly do have an effect. the poll options are meant to be quick summaries of how the comments are interpreted, obviously it's not nearly that simple and you have to take things on a case-by-case basis; something not having a large impact is definitely reason as to why it's not worth flipping tables over, but if it's still there and has a presence then it shouldn't simply be ignored by all as if it has no effect, because that's not right, either. and people can criticize things regardless of their impact, just for the sake of doing it. keeping one's personal feelings or the true direct impact of things separate from objective critique is important. like I'm just going to put up with these features because I can handicap myself and live without them, but it's not fair to expect everyone to handicap themselves and tip-toe around the shadier parts of FEif as if they don't exist, and expect them not to dislike it or criticize it. >_>; I mean, the time/effort put into these weirder features could have been spent into something deeper and more worthwhile, so there's that, too; not only does it effect atmosphere, immersion, and gameplay (it gives you bond points which gives players who use it an advantage), but it's taking away from something that a lot more people could appreciate (since no offense veeeery few people are going to appreciate this feature, pretty much just the otakus/weebs/whatever they identify as, the very small minority of people who indulge in these things).


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#8 ^Leo^

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 07:25 PM

Since i don't know the person who made the comment i can only go by what i see.Without more context i can only say that the comment is a shallow argument with very little to back itself up. Without more information i can't see how it would be any more than what it is. The rest of my post is my personal thoughts on the matter.sorry about that,i was far too tired at the time for clear thought anyway.shouldn't have been anywhere near a forum XD

#9 Cero

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 08:32 PM



I mostly agree with what you say but I don't get the first sentence. The intention of his comment was B (so is that what you voted) but the argument and deliver is A? so is the person practically contradicting himself or what, I don't even >_<

lol. I believe that what the person is trying to argue is option B. But the way it is being said points to option A (so I voted A). Not sure if I'm being intelligible here.


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#10 Mercurius

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 09:14 PM

If it's a response to what you are making an argument for, then it makes more sense for it to be option B.

 

Of course it makes a whole lot more sense to just try to ask the person that made the response in the first place (it should have been fairly recent if it's about this game) than to ask us to guess since this is the internet and not real life, but the tone of the response (if it's toward you) either sets it up as something that's trying to go against your argument, or something that didn't bother to read what you said at all.

 

"See what I'm getting at" sets the intention for what context we're provided(there are no participants mentioned but you and the person who responded) because they wouldn't mention that part if they were trying to imply that their opinion is the same as yours. There is absolutely no doubt that you would be able to correctly interpret their comment if they assume they are on your side, since doubt is present, they taunt your intelligence to antagonize you(how intentional this is is a different matter.)


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#11 Fire Blazer

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 09:25 PM

lol. I believe that what the person is trying to argue is option B. But the way it is being said points to option A (so I voted A). Not sure if I'm being intelligible here.

 

no that makes sense I blame the commenter for being a noob lol

 

If it's a response to what you are making an argument for, then it makes more sense for it to be option B.

 

Of course it makes a whole lot more sense to just try to ask the person that made the response in the first place (it should have been fairly recent if it's about this game) than to ask us to guess since this is the internet and not real life, but the tone of the response (if it's toward you) either sets it up as something that's trying to go against your argument, or something that didn't bother to read what you said at all.

 

"See what I'm getting at" sets the intention for what context we're provided(there are no participants mentioned but you and the person who responded) because they wouldn't mention that part if they were trying to imply that their opinion is the same as yours. There is absolutely no doubt that you would be able to correctly interpret their comment if they assume they are on your side, since doubt is present, they taunt your intelligence to antagonize you(how intentional this is is a different matter.)

 

most of the people in that conversation were dumb and trying to talk over each other instead of with each other, yeah

 

there were arguments going for both sides so it could have been either side

 

that last part made no sense to me and honestly... I don't think I want to understand lol


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#12 Mercurius

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 09:42 PM

most of the people in that conversation were dumb and trying to talk over each other instead of with each other, yeah

there's pretty much no point whatsoever in speculating then. You might as well try guessing what brought about some randomly chosen skype quotes of mine:

 

[6/8/2015 11:14:07 AM] Al-mi'raj: actually I can't remember why something explodes in the microwave
[6/8/2015 11:14:10 AM] Al-mi'raj: I don't THINK she was putting eggs in there
[6/8/2015 11:14:16 AM] Al-mi'raj: ...or maybe it was just spilling the food
[6/8/2015 11:14:25 AM] Al-mi'raj: I'm betting on explosion

 

[5/31/2015 11:01:23 AM] Al-mi'raj: she's probably the kind of mom that never visits her son's room but totally knows there's porn on his computer anyway

[5/30/2015 5:18:25 PM] Al-mi'raj: you don't really need enchanted arrows for taking down the helicopters themselves though

[5/20/2015 7:01:35 PM] Al-mi'raj: these things would hate to play an MMO together
[5/20/2015 7:02:37 PM] Al-mi'raj: Hyena: "oh god, it's those goddamn DPS whores"
Other Hyena:"how come they always play female characters?"

 

[5/16/2015 11:17:26 AM] Al-mi'raj: wtf author
[5/16/2015 11:17:27 AM] Al-mi'raj: THIS IS NOT
[5/16/2015 11:17:30 AM] Al-mi'raj: WHAT WE CAME HERE FOR
[5/16/2015 11:17:35 AM] Al-mi'raj: WHERE IS THE MALE SHOWER SCENE


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#13 Fire Blazer

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 04:09 AM

that's

 

I

 

...

 

I don't even

 

you manage to make me speechless pretty easily, Merc


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