12 replies to this topic

[kirant]

Okay, so here's the basic rundown of what's going on:
- I'm mind modding FE7 at the moment (planning things out. Even in text files, my pre-hacking work is getting pretty lengthy)
- I'd like the character replacing Rath to re-appear at the time Guy's character is coded to appear (and vise versa) for balance reasons.

Now, here are my questions:
- I'm assuming the character replacing Guy will fully be treated as Rath. I assume, in that case, that the old event for recruiting Guy (Have Mathew talk to the Guy unit) will be useless, as Guy no longer exists.
- Now, first, will I be able to set any recruitment conditions for Rath without going into heavy hex editing? I mean, I don't have the Lyn character available at this time either way. I'm not going to be one who does heavy editing (why did they have to have a recruitment editor nightmare module for FE8, but not FE7?), so if that isn't going to work, I'll have to look at alternatives (ex - just have them randomly start on your side or delay their re-recruitment a little longer past that). But I don't have much knowledge of character movements (I had a pilot one in the last couple years, but kept character placement fairly similar...damn near identical) so I figured I'd pick your brain first.
- If I make this switch, will the Guy character activate the same trigger when he is recruited later on? That is to say, will it call on the memory used all the way back in Chapter 13 to read a conversation?

I'm suspecting I'll need to move my Rath replacement character to a spot where the Lyn replacement character can talk to them (my second though was actually to put the character in the same approximate region as Raven's character), but I'm not sure on the conversation triggers and recruitment conditions as to whether or not I'll need to do some fancy editing to get the conversations to work.

EDIT - I know my questions are pretty obvious, so I'll save you the time of looking something like this up (10 points goes to whoever guesses the character first! She's been the target of obsession for me lately)

[Fire Blazer]

I....

I'm honestly a little confused myself, just by your question, so perhaps I'll just share some words on recruitment:

- FE7 and FE8 recruitments might work differently, thus the module difference... just a thought, I'm not sure
- events are attached to a character ID, e.g. if Guy's ID is 0x06, the character uses that ID to do stuff with him in his chapter, whether it's move him around the map during cutscenes or have him be able to talk with Matthew. This ID is what the game sees: "Guy" is what we see.
- if you want to replace characters, it's usually easier to switch everything BUT the character ID. Thus you're switching what the player sees, but not what the game sees, and therefore aren't breaking anything in terms of the "events" as we call them.
- custom conditions require editing of events, which is generally a pain though it doesn't necessarily require hex editing (you do need to learn a little bit about the Event Assembler, but you can get away with minimal knowledge and might find someone to help you if it's a 1-time thing)

I was generally confused by your post but this part especially confused me

QUOTE

- If I make this switch, will the Guy character activate the same trigger when he is recruited later on? That is to say, will it call on the memory used all the way back in Chapter 13 to read a conversation?

so if you could elaborate on that and rephrase any remaining questions, I'd appreciate it! Sorry I'm not much help, maybe it's just too late (5AM)!
-

[kirant]

QUOTE (Blazer @ Jan 25 2014, 03:04 AM)

- events are attached to a character ID, e.g. if Guy's ID is 0x06, the character uses that ID to do stuff with him in his chapter, whether it's move him around the map during cutscenes or have him be able to talk with Matthew. This ID is what the game sees: "Guy" is what we see.

Okay, so there are two IDs we can talk about and we're talking about two different things. There is Character ID and Chapter Unit Editor data (which is what I meant). I think you're talking about the character ID, the one which lets the game know who's stat vector to update and how to initialize their stats in accordance to the base stats you provide over their base class you provide in the Chapter Unit data. I'm guessing this since Guy's character ID is 0x06. This is basically what I use to alter their affinity, base stats, etc.

What I was talking about using the Chapter Unit Editor Nightmare module, which lists what units appear on what map. For example, my old plan was to replace Guy's 0x06 Character ID with Rath's (in this case, 0x32) in the Chapter Unit editor to such an effect that Rath's unit is called to appear instead of Guy. The purpose for this would be to get Rath to appear earlier. Then I'll make a stronger Guy using the Character Editor (stronger bases), then make him appear as a Swordsmaster (if we assume I don't change classes or something) on the chapter where Rath appears.

The question I had, in that case, would be "are recruitment conversations tied to Character ID or to Chapter Unit ID"?. Having glanced over your "Ultimate Tutorial" a while ago, I think it was implied that the recruitment conversations are tied to the character IDs, but I wanted to confirm.

And if that is that case, if I have Guy appear on Chapter 21 in Eliwood Normal Mode (?) (this game will be hard enough as is ) and Mathew tries to recruit him on that Chapter, does it still play the same conversation as the one that would play if Mathew and Guy talked on Chapter 13? In the same stretch of logic, if Rath were to appear on Chapter 15 and Lyn talked to him, would the conversation from Chapter 21 play? I mean, they SHOULD. They order they were packed in was just locations of convenient access for the original coders; chronological order was easiest for them to remember. In all honesty, they should have also been able to organize it so all the storyline conversation came in one swath of memory, then all the recruitment conversations.

But, to go back to the original point, let's consider thiee hypothetical scenario (which is basically what I'm doing/asking for clarification in):
- Rath appears on Chapter 13, replacing Guy. Lyn is therefore not able to talk to him since she hasn't reappeared yet. Is there any way to recruit him without altering lots more than I care to do (being a writer and statistical theorist more than programmer)?
- Rath appears on Chapter 15, replacing a generic enemy's spot. Lyn is available now. Can she recruit him? If so, will the original conversation from Chapter 21 play?
- Guy appears on Chapter 21, replacing Rath. Mathew hasn't died yet. Can Guy get recruited. If so, will the original conversation from Chapter 21 play?

And an "oops, I might have screwed something up" question:
- Let's say I make Fiora appear on Chapter 17. But for some reason, I forget to erase her appearance on Chapter 18. Will there be any alerts to me of this happening? Such as I'll now have two Fioras on my team? Or will the presence of a recruited Fiora remove the appearance of the second one (I doubt it)? Further to this, if I do end up with clones, how much does that screw up the interior programming?

[Snow]

QUOTE

The question I had, in that case, would be "are recruitment conversations tied to Character ID or to Chapter Unit ID"?.

Short version: Character ID
Long version:A recruitment conversation doesn't really exist, what happens is a talk event, and somewhere in those events is the code that changes the character from enemy/NPC to ally. Basically this is so you know that ALL conversations are tied to the character ID not just the ones we call "recruitment conversations".

QUOTE

Rath appears on Chapter 13, replacing Guy. Lyn is therefore not able to talk to him since she hasn't reappeared yet. Is there any way to recruit him without altering lots more than I care to do (being a writer and statistical theorist more than programmer)?

I'm guessing you know how to use Nightmare since you mentioned a bunch of modules in another post. The easiest way to do this would be to take the character module, and replace all of Guys info with Rath's info. The replace all off Guy's data with Raths. This creates two "problems" though.
1. Rath wouldn't have his stats from Lyn mode, you'd have to give him new stats or use his bases
2. Matthew would be the one to recruit Rath (might not be a problem but thought I would mention it.)

QUOTE

- Rath appears on Chapter 15, replacing a generic enemy's spot. Lyn is available now. Can she recruit him? If so, will the original conversation from Chapter 21 play?

No, this is because the conversation that is used to recruit Rath is only available in chapter 21. That convesation doesn't happen in any other chapter. To give another example, Lyns conversation with Dorcas in chapter 4 can ONLY happen in chapter 4 (unless you change events).

QUOTE

- Guy appears on Chapter 21, replacing Rath. Mathew hasn't died yet. Can Guy get recruited. If so, will the original conversation from Chapter 21 play?

No for the same reasons above. If however you replaced Guys nightmare data with Raths, as Blazer (and I) suggested, then Lyn would be able to recruit "Guy" (Since the game still sees him as Rath).

QUOTE

- Let's say I make Fiora appear on Chapter 17. But for some reason, I forget to erase her appearance on Chapter 18. Will there be any alerts to me of this happening? Such as I'll now have two Fioras on my team? Or will the presence of a recruited Fiora remove the appearance of the second one (I doubt it)? Further to this, if I do end up with clones, how much does that screw up the interior programming?

I'm not sure but I think, you will have 2 Fioras on your team (assuming you recruited both) and that it wouldn't screw with anything else... unless you start eventing, then you might run into trouble.

Hope this helps and that I didn't say somethign completely wrong.

[Fire Blazer]

short on time but

I think you're inventing a second ID that doesn't really exist

a character really only has one identifier, that 0x06 in the chapter unit editor is actually just changing the events through a module. if you change that to 0x32 you will most certainly break the game (or at the very least it won't work the way you want it to) because it will keep checking for character 0x06 in various things. you either have to change EVERY instance of 0x06 to 0x32 and vice-versa, or you need to just edit the corresponding data of each ID

[kirant]

QUOTE (Snow @ Jan 25 2014, 12:49 PM)

Long version:A recruitment conversation doesn't really exist, what happens is a talk event, and somewhere in those events is the code that changes the character from enemy/NPC to ally. Basically this is so you know that ALL conversations are tied to the character ID not just the ones we call "recruitment conversations".

I got that first part. You could, if you wanted, point it to any conversation you wanted if memory serves. I just labelled them certain ways since I'm not familiar with the specific terminology and picked terms that should make sense to most people.

From the sounds of your response, the talk events are only accessible on the map they were designed for. For example, calling the talk event for Guy being recruited by Mathew is only available on the chapter Guy originally appears. To that degree, if I tried to move Guy to another chapter, I would effectively have to transpose all of Guy's data to another character's data slot if I were to use Nightmare for this. I just tested this by replacing Guy with Erk and can see the problem.

Which means making a Rath replacement will be much harder than before if I can't have him recruited elsewhere.

On the same note though, is changing characters recruited from villages (ex - Canas, Priscilla) through Nightmare straight forward? As in, if I decided "Hey, let's make Rath appear in Priscilla's spot", that can that simply be done by altering the Chapter Unit Data for that map, right? As long as the Priscilla character automatically joins your team another time (since there never going to be any recruiting conditions for her without event editing) and as long as the above is possible, I'm still good I imagine. Also, having Priscilla recruited before the Raven event, of course.

Additionally, if I were to place, let's say, Guy's replacement on Rath's original return map and just made him assigned to the player from the get go, that should mask some of the flaws, right? It's lazy masking of a problem for sure, but if Guy appears in Rath's spot for that map under player control, that should make him automatically recruited, even if he shows up a turn or two later than the rest of your team, correct?

[Fire Blazer]

I'm so confused

you sure make things complicated

[kirant]

QUOTE (Blazer @ Jan 25 2014, 11:37 PM)

I'm so confused you sure make things complicated

It's all because I'm trying to make the character to replace Rath actually useful.

I already gave up making Wallace's replacement useful. He just vanishes come main story.

What I'm asking right now, effectively is:
- If I use the Chapter Unit Editor in Nightmare (since it holds your hand basically), and I go to a chapter with a character recruited from a village (ex - Priscilla), is it as simple as altering what character appears in that chapter and plunking down the character I want to appear there instead. So, for the Chapter "False Friends" CUE, if I replace all instances of the "Priscilla" value being called by the module and replace them all with "Rath" (well, Rath (Non tutorial) to be specific), it should cause Rath to appear instead of Priscilla when I visit the southern village. Is that correct? This seems like a very simple change and I just did something like that when testing out above
- In the same stretch of logic, if I make a character automatically recruited (ex - I use the data originally used for "Guy" in Birds of a Feather to move him to a place closer to your party, then change his alignment to PC, and change it so that instead of calling Guy, it reads the of Priscilla's...such that the portrait will call Priscilla's portrait), that should in essence give you the character to start the map. In this regard, it's completely indistinguishable by the code of the game from other automatically recruited characters (like Isadora, Lowen, or Rebecca). Lazy design, yes, but I if my memory of how the interior logic works for Fire Emblem coding, it isn't possible to tell apart.

If the answer isn't known, I'll just find out myself through brute force testing

[^Leo^]

If I followed that correctly yea, that should work. Unfortunately, nobody can follow that. Just remember to change everything that you need to or you'll end up with a Priscilla that has a bow level instead of staves.

Edit:I know that may sound like a noob mistake and I'm sorry if I offended you, but nightmare is so tedious it's easy to miss stuff. I could be wrong about you being right though. having never done it myself I don't know.

[Fire Blazer]

QUOTE

What I'm asking right now, effectively is: - If I use the Chapter Unit Editor in Nightmare (since it holds your hand basically), and I go to a chapter with a character recruited from a village (ex - Priscilla), is it as simple as altering what character appears in that chapter and plunking down the character I want to appear there instead. So, for the Chapter "False Friends" CUE, if I replace all instances of the "Priscilla" value being called by the module and replace them all with "Rath" (well, Rath (Non tutorial) to be specific), it should cause Rath to appear instead of Priscilla when I visit the southern village. Is that correct? This seems like a very simple change and I just did something like that when testing out above

Possibly. It's hit or miss. A character's ID might appear other places BESIDES the Chapter Unit Editor. If it does, and those instances are a key part of the game working, then your game will glitch. If it doesn't then your game won't get glitch. In the case of Priscilla I think she doesn't have any other events that use her ID so it should be okay.

For the second one, I'm definitely confused again, so you'll either have to test yourself as you said (assuming you didn't already) or you'll have to make some sort of picture I can understand or something XD sorry Kirant >_<

[kirant]

QUOTE (Blazer @ Feb 3 2014, 04:54 PM)

Possibly. It's hit or miss. A character's ID might appear other places BESIDES the Chapter Unit Editor. If it does, and those instances are a key part of the game working, then your game will glitch. If it doesn't then your game won't get glitch. In the case of Priscilla I think she doesn't have any other events that use her ID so it should be okay.

I think with any character where they aren't required to live after recruitment, it should be safe. "Not recruited yet" and "dead" would be effectively equivalent in terms of the events.

[Fire Blazer]

Not necessarily. If the events are used to move the character (outside of the movement when they're loaded), it could also glitch. Cursor flashes and other things that might use character IDs can also potentially cause glitches.

[kirant]

QUOTE (Blazer @ Feb 4 2014, 02:00 PM)

Not necessarily. If the events are used to move the character (outside of the movement when they're loaded), it could also glitch. Cursor flashes and other things that might use character IDs can also potentially cause glitches.

I'm trying to think of many actions where they'd be important. I mean, anything that happens in chapter typically will be fine since CUE is pretty comprehensive of appearances in chapter (ex - Renault appears on map and flees if his village is destroyed, but there is an editable ID call there). The worry, of course, is cutscenes which call on characters. Like Raven talking to the guard will have the cursor appear over Raven. Something like that I'm obviously not going to screw around with because calling on the character is obviously well flagged.

The list seems pretty comprehensive though and besides characters like Pent/Louise/Athos/Hawkeye/Legault (whom I'm not looking to move around too much from their respective recruitments), it shouldn't be a major issue.