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"Experience sponging"


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#1 Tino

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 01:46 PM

This is an article I've written that might be a good thing to be put up on the site, because it's a topic that's being discussed very often. So FB, please consider this for being put up on the main site wink.gif

Also, please comment biggrin.gif

------------------------------------------------------

Promoted units that come fairly early in the game are often referred to as "Experience sponges". What most people don't realize, though, is that this title is highly inappropriate, since if anything, it's the other way around. Obviously, I'm going to elaborate on this subject, otherwise this article would be incredibly useless for you.

If you have ever read debates, this point will be very familiar with you, as it's often used against characters like Seth, Titania in both games, Sothe in Radiant Dawn, and many other units that come at very high levels for that part of the game. They are, by the majority of the people, seen as "Experience sponges". However, as I already implied in the introductory paragraph of this article, this statement is wrong. If anything, the opposite is true.

Taking Path of Radiance as an example, very often people say that Titania shouldn't get any kills, because people like Oscar, Boyd and Ike need it a lot, while Titania doesn't need the kills as much. However, if you think about it, how can this possibly be a negative for Titania? How can Titania not needing the Experience possibly be a negative. If anything, it's a positive for her, since she doesn't need to do anything and still be better than the other characters you have at that moment. Basically, it's like saying that while Zihark doesn't need a Speedwing while Gatrie would definitely like getting one is a negative for Zihark, which is obviously a load of bull.

Another point that's often used against Titania is that she gains so few Experience when she does hit or kill something. However, this only affects her own growth, and doesn't affect the other units in any way. I mean, if Ike kills something, he also prevents other units from growing, just like Titania. Basically, Titania comes with 2000 free Experience, while other early characters don't come with so much Experience, and therefore actually need to take away more Experience from the team.

Just think about it: if neither Titania nor Oscar has killed something, Titania is clearly superior.

??/1 Titania
33 HP
12 Str
4 Mag
13 Skl
14 Spd
11 Luc
11 Def
7 Res

3/0 Oscar
26 HP
6 Str
1 Mag
6 Skl
7 Spd
5 Luc
8 Def
0 Res

As you see, Oscar is worse by a landslide. Then, when Oscar hits LvL 16/0 or something, he'll finally be comparable to Titania, who will be Lvl ??/3 or Lvl ??/4 by that time.

After all this, there are many people who still say Titania shouldn't be getting any kills at all. However, this is yet another positive for Titania, because it means there's another way Titania can be used, namely that she either unequips her weapons and soaks up hits while gaining some Experience, or by simply sitting back and watch the other characters fight. And since most people apparantly think this second way is better than the first way, and the first way she can be used is better than Oscar, then this second way she can be used makes her even better than Oscar than she already was.

In other words, people use the term of "Experience sponging" inappropriately, for various reasons. Here's a small summary, still using Path of Radiance as the example.

1) Titania comes with 2000 free Experience, and therefore takes away less Experience from the team than characters like Oscar.
2) She doesn't "need" as much Experience than other characters.
3) The fact that Titania gains less Experience is only represented by her gaining less Exp than other units, but doesn't affect the growth of other characters at all.
4) Titania has been a lot better than other characters for a long time when they finally start being comparable, but the other characters never have a period in which they are better than Titania by a landslide.
5) Titania apparantly has various methods in which she can be used, and no matter how you use her, she's the best character.

And now, to actually convince you people of my correctness (is that even a word?), I'll even prove my point to be right. I'll compare Titania to Oscar and Kieran, who are both assumed to be among the best characters in the game, with which I agree.

I've already proven that Titania was better when neither had gained any kills. Now, let's compare them when Oscar has obtained his first Ike support, so his C Ike support. This will be by Despair and Hope. I don't think it's unlikely that Titania has gained a level too, by now. Oscar has been unavailable for two chapters, and has been facing many axe users in the first two chapters, while being behind offensively in the other chapters he's been available in, so I suppose Lvl 8/0 or 9/0 is reasonable.

??/2 Titania
34 HP
12 Str
4 Mag
14 Skl
15 Spd
11 Luc
11 Def
7 Res

9/0 Oscar
29 HP
9 Str
2 Mag
9 Skl
10 Spd
7 Luc
10 Def
2 Res
C Ike: 10 Avo

Titania: 19 Atk, 15 Atk Spd, 41 Avo (Iron Lance)
Oscar: 16 Atk, 10 Atk Spd, 37 Avo (Iron Lance)

As you see, Titania is better both offensively and defensively. And that is even without mentioned Titania being able to use heaver, stronger weapons without losing too much Spd (Titania still has 14 Atk Spd with a Steel Lance, while Oscar only has 6 Atk Spd with that same Steel Lance) and being able to use axes, too, which together with her higher movement, makes her a lot better than Oscar.

Then, when Kieran joins:

??/3 Titania
35 HP
13 Str
5 Mag
14 Skl
15 Spd
12 Luc
12 Def
8 Res
C Ike: 5 Avo

13/0 Oscar
32 HP
10 Str
3 Mag
11 Skl
11 Spd
8 Luc
11 Def
3 Res
B Ike: 20 Avo

12/0 Kieran
30 HP
11 Str
1 Mag
10 Skl
12 Spd
8 Luc
10 Def
1 Res

Titania: 21 Atk, 15 Atk Spd, 47 Avo (Iron Axe)
Oscar: 17 Atk, 11 Atk Spd, 50 Avo (Iron Lance)
Kieran: 19 Atk, 12 Atk Spd, 32 Avo (Iron Axe)

Again, Titania is clearly winning this, no matter how you look at it. She can use heavier weapons without losing too much Atk Spd and therefore still be faster than Oscar and Kieran even if she uses a Steel Axe or something similar, like a Steel Lance. She also still has the advantage of having more movement, better weapon triangle control, et cetera.

??/6 Titania
37 HP
14 Str
5 Mag
16 Skl
17 Spd
13 Luc
13 Def
9 Res
B Mist/B Ike: 1 Atk, 3 Def, 10 Avo

20/1 Oscar
38 HP
16 Str
6 Mag
17 Skl
17 Spd
10 Luc
16 Def
8 Res
A Ike/B Kieran: 45 Avo

20/1 Kieran
38 HP
17 Str
16 Skl
17 Spd
10 Luc
15 Def
7 Res
B Marcia/B Oscar: 1 Atk, 20 Avo

(( All Steel Axe ))
Titania: 26 Atk, 16 Atk Spd, 55 Avo
Oscar: 27 Atk, 17 Atk Spd, 89 Avo
Kieran: 29 Atk, 17 Atk Spd, 64 Avo

Offensively, she really isn't too much behind, and she her durability also is quite on par with Kieran's (it's basically 1 Def and 5 Res vs 1 HP and 9 Avo, and then Titania definitely wins), while Oscar is basically never going to get hit, especially considering how often he'll have WTA.

So all in all, Titania is still not much worse, if not on par or something.

Let's take a look at Growth Rates:

Titania: 80% HP, 45% Str, 60% Skl, 50% Spd, 45% Luc, 40% Def, 45% Res
Oscar: 55% HP, 45% Str, 50% Skl, 45% Spd, 30% Luc, 35% Def, 30% Res
Kieran: 60% HP, 50% Str, 50% Skl, 40% Spd, 25% Luc, 40% Def, 30% Res

Titania isn't growing as slowly compared to Oscar and Kieran anymore, so Oscar and Kieran will probably gain a slightly larger Atk lead (perhaps it'll increase by 1 or 2 points for Kieran, and perhaps 0 or 1 point for Oscar), while Titania will probably obtain some slight HP and Spd leads. She will also get more concrete durability in the forms of more Def and Spd. Granted, her durability will never match Oscar's, but she's still a good defensive unit regardless.

Basically, what these growths mean are that Titania won't be far behind Oscar and Kieran even if Oscar and Kieran increase some of their leads.

In other words, even though Titania grows a good deal slower than Oscar and Kieran until they promote, Titania is still better for a good deal of the game, and even when they promote, Titania is still not much worse, and later on, she might even obtain some leads on them. Titania never gets beaten by Oscar and Kieran as hard as she has beat them earlier in the game, so Titania is clearly the winner.

I hope this has convinced people that the term of "Experience sponging" is used incorrectly by nearly everyone.

This article was inspired by how many people use it incorrectly. Mekkah also deserves credit for a similar essay on this particular subject, which inspired me to write this, too.

~Tino

#2 Fire Blazer

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Posted 28 March 2009 - 03:29 PM

Cool article, and I get the logic behind it for the most part so I'm going to try and make things more neutral when I compare "jeigans" to other characters. :\

Also thanks for allowing it to be on the site, it is definitely a quality article. happy.gif

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#3 Sx2Kirby

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 06:59 PM

so your trying to say... prepromotes are better then unpromoted?
hmmm ummm whaaat?
or are you saying that oscar and kieran blow?
...
????

#4 Tino

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 08:01 PM

I'm saying that the term of experience sponging or experience hogging is used incorrectly.

And yes, prepromotes have various advantages over characters who come unpromoted, such as being cheaper due to not needing a promotion item, needing less Exp to become good (though that obviously only applies to the better prepromotes like Pent, Harken, Duessel, etc.), and such things. That's not the point of this topic though.

And no, I'm not saying Oscar and Kieran blow. What I proved with the statistical comparisons is that Titania is better for a large portion of the game, while Oscar and Kieran are only marginally better for a pretty small part of the game, which means Titania is actually better than the units who are often referred to as the two best units in the game.

#5 Sx2Kirby

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 08:35 PM

okay gotcha but still if you prepromotes from chapter 1 till the end there are gonna be some problems

#6 Tino

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 08:44 PM

Did you even read my post? In case you didn't understand, let me rephrase it for you:

Titania's average performance over the course of the entire game is better than the average performance of units who are often considered to be among the top units in the game, as I've shown in the statistical comparisons at the end of the article.

#7 cox21

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 08:48 PM

Er, Tino, if I were you, I'd use Marcus or Jeigan or one of the others, because Titania is uber.
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#8 Tino

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:04 PM

It doesn't matter at all. And this isn't about whether jeigans are good or not, this is about the whole argument of experience hogging.

#9 cox21

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:23 PM

Sorry, I got mixed up with forums.

By the way, then, why did you use this in your Tactics Emblem debate with that guy Cecil if this is not about Jeigans but about sponging?
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#10 Tino

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:40 PM

Because that debate is one huge misunderstanding.

#11 cox21

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:57 PM

Yeah, but a misunderstanding by who?
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#12 Tino

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:06 PM

A misunderstanding by me, I'll admit that, though it also should be noted that there wasn't much specification as to what the debate was about exactly.

#13 cox21

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 11:17 PM

Well two bad for you guys then.
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#14 Rujio

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:36 AM

Actually, you didn't prove that we use "exp hog" incorrectly, because they don't need it, and I'd define and exp hog as a character who takes what would be valuable exp to other units and gets very little from it. You just proved the potential exp hogs aren't bad.
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#15 Holy Kensai

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 05:54 AM

No, he did. Because weaker ones need more XP, while stronger ones need less.

For example;
Franz needs XP to gte to level 20.
Seth is already promoted.
You can leave both out of the battles, your team gets more XP, and when your characters are promoted you just add Seth in. Bam. Therefore Franz would be the actual "EXP Hog" while you would normally say Seth is the "EXP Hog".

The only way Seth is an "EXP Hog' is if you're stupid enough to attack everything with him for the 1 or 2 XP.

At least, I'm pretty sure that's what Tino meant, if not. Still right. tongue.gif
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#16 Rujio

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 06:07 AM

Okay, correction. It was only proved that people who use Exp Hog to describe any prepromote no matter what wrong. It wasn't proved that everyone uses it incorrectly as my friends and me only use that when a unit actually kills most of the enemies (es. when they don't need it.) Clearly I'm just ignorant as to what most people say in the FE community. After all, I don't even have 10 posts yet.
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#17 Holy Kensai

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:45 AM

tongue.gif Perhaps. Pent is an XP Hog in the first map you see him, the Nabata Desert one. And every unit who is not a prepromote is a possible XP hog, I suppose.

Also, you are ignorant to their ignorance. Aha. Tino is trying to fix their ignorance, or at least ours.

Anyways, shouldn't this be stickied or posted as a tutorial or something? Cause it seems kinda valuable information to lose from the first page.
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#18 Tino

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:05 PM

It's on the main site as well.

But if Blazer thinks this deserves to be pinned, I'll let him do the job, since I personally don't think it's very much necessary to do so.




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