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Gilliam vs Duessel and Joshua: Swordmaster or Assassin


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Poll: Who's better? Gilliam or Duessel? And should Joshua be a SM or Assassin? (18 member(s) have cast votes)

Who's better? Gilliam or Duessel? And should Joshua be a SM or Assassin?

  1. Gilliam and SM (6 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  2. Gilliam and Assassin (2 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  3. Duessel and SM (4 votes [22.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

  4. Duessel and Assassin (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Gilliam and screw Josh. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. Duessel and screw Josh. (1 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  7. They both suck, and SM. (1 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  8. They both suck, and Assassin. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. Lol, please. (4 votes [22.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

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#1 Hawk

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 07:26 PM

Well, debate.
I think Gilliam and Joshua as Assassin.
Assassin is cooler looking, lol. ohmy.gif
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#2 Fitz24

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 07:49 PM

Making Joshua an assassin is like going against the game. He's a Swordmaster no if's and's or but's about it. He was desgned to be a swordmaster. No he doesn't look cooler as an assassin. He is a badass looking swordmaster.
His duel versus Carlyle (Chapter 14) should be swordmaster vs swordmaster.
End of story.

And Duessel is crap. You get him too late in the game. I also prefer Generals to Great Knights.

Amelia>Gilliam
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#3 Hawk

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 08:16 PM

Well, right. I don't really use Joshua anyway. BUT, Assassins look cooler, especially with Silencer. I'm better off using Vanessa vs Carlyle. She has some b***hing speed.


Here.
Swordmaster: Max stats:
60 24 29 30 22 23 20
Assassin:
60 20 30 30 20 20 20

Looks like SM is better anyway.
But.
Silencer and Lockpicks.

And here:
General:
60 29 27 24 30 25 25
60 27 28 25 29 26 25

Great Knight:
60 28 24 24 29 25 25
60 26 25 23 28 26 25

Great Knight has one more Move.
But.
General has Great Shield.

And Skill Growth.
Gilliam
A C D D D A E

Duessel
A A C D E B D

Amelia
C C C C B D E

So, FADO.
A A C D D B D
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#4 Seraphinox

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 08:40 PM

My personal preference is Gilliam, Duessel is a good enough tank but I really do love using Generals, no matter the crap speed and movemen of them.

Swordmaster all the way for me, why would you make Joshua a swordmaster anyway? If you want a good assasin just train up Marisa, better chance of reaching str cap and plus added bonus of OHKO
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#5 Green

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:05 PM

I prefer Duessel over Gilliam due to the fact that I dont have to train him, also, his 15 inch penis con and weapon rank are nice too.

Josh goes SM for me, Colm is my main assassin

#6 Falaflame

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:27 PM

I don't know why people use Colm as an assassin. You save money buying lockpicks by being a Rogue. And by making Colm an assassin, the only person you can get Rogue action out of is Rennac, who is just... pitiful.

Eirika mode, Gilliam beats Duessel.

Ephraim mode, Duessel CRUSHES Gilliam.
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#7 Green

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 09:39 PM

You're forgetting this is FE8, train anyone to level 20 and they can solo engame ~_~

#8 Rujio

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 01:18 AM

Edit: Okay, full argument. Attempted to be concise.

Gilliam joins in chapter 1. Can't do a whole lot here, honestly.

Chapter 2: Gill has to travel through forests. Then has WTD. And is possibly doubled. So he's 2-3RKOd and frighteningly high hit rates and 3HKOs and poor ones.

Chapter 3: Gill's move is a serious problem here. His invincibility isn't a real boon since enemy density is low enough that you can easily control damage. Oh, and Franz and Seth exist.

Chapter 4: Can actually be helpful here! If he's managed to get SPD, he ORKOs revenants and possibly bonewalkers (I don't remember AS) while being invincible. And since there are enemies everywhere, MOV isn't a problem.

Chapter 5: Suffers WTD everywhere but the top of the map, which he won't reach. I guess, if he isn't doubled, he can take hits reasonably well near the bottom...

Chapter 6: With proper fort/forest usage he can take hits well from many enemies and attack in return while the boss is rushed. Doesn't help here, but can help himself some.

Chapter 7: His MOV seriously screws him over here.

Chapter 8: Enemies all over, but you now have three cavs, Seth, and Vanessa running forward as well as Josh and Garcia with much better offense. I guess he can net some EXP here...

Ephraim Route:
9: Bad MOV sucks. Maybe he can distract the sleep guy?

10: I don't remember this well enough, but basically MOV still sucks. Duessel joins this chapter. What with Franz/Kyle/Forde, his shots at a Knight's Crest are poor, but I'll pretend like he's A: level 10 and B: actually gets the knight crest.

Duessel's stats/Gilliam's stats
HP: 41/33.4
STR: 17/13.7
SKL: 12/9.1
SPD: 12/6.8
LUK: 8/4.8
DEF: 17/14.3
RES: 9/5.2
Axe Rank: A/D
Lance Rank: A/B~
Sword Rank: A/E

Want me to explain how Duessel wins from now on? Despite being very generous to Gill.

Might do Eirika's later... Might talk about why SM>>>Assassin, too...
OBJECTIVELY
I don't care if you enjoy using Gill more or like Assassin more. It just bugs me when someone insinuates that something is CORRECT when it's not. I enjoy using trainees. I enjoy ignoring Seth. But that's crap strategy and very poor choices objectively.

Oh, tl;dr version: Gill accomplishes almost nothing through most of the game. Then, even with favoritism, is destroyed by Duessel. However, I genuinely don't care with what you do 'for fun.' It's just correctness that I care about. I do all sorts of objectively bad things in FE, myself.
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#9 Swordsalmon

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 05:12 AM

QUOTE (Ledah @ Apr 2 2011, 04:27 PM)
I don't know why people use Colm as an assassin. You save money buying lockpicks by being a Rogue. And by making Colm an assassin, the only person you can get Rogue action out of is Rennac, who is just... pitiful.


By the time Colm promotes, there's like two chapters where he could be getting stuff from chests. The extra point of Con and slightly better offense makes Assassin the better choice.

Duesell wrecks everyone, and screw Joshua.

#10 Falaflame

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 06:47 AM

I'm going to be frank here.

You're basically just shanking Gilliam here.

Gilliam only gets doubled by anything with 7AS unless by some odd occurance you get a Heavy Spear, and the only enemy I can think of is lolMercs and lolMcCartney. Bandits do like, ~5 damage off of Gilliam out of his 25 and don't double him. Sure his hit isn't all that, but he's taking hits just fine. I don't see the problem there.

He doesn't get doubled until about Ch6ish, unless in any of your levelups, he hasn't gotten a single point of speed. But even then, he can just tank using whatever's given to him in that very chapter. (ie tons of forests and forts).

Next chapter isn't much of a threat to him either, because the fighters aren't going to do much to him even with lolSteels because by this time he's already got C The Boulder and C Garcia, and a good 10-11 levels under his belt. You've got fine units in Garcia and The Boulder supporting you, I can't think of what the worst that could happen IMO.

Yes, it's documented that his Mov causes troubles. If you put him somewhere in front, he'll take a bunch of hits, and by the time he gets left behind, more than half the enemy units are gone anyhow, so it isn't that much of a big deal, until other units start promoting of course.

From here on out, it's the Route Split. I have ALREADY established that Duessel crushes Gilliam in Ephraim mode. But like I said, not so much in Eirika mode. I'll get to that later.

Meanwhile...

I'm looking at the comparisons you're making between Duessel and Gilliam, and it's just so blatantly ridiculous I'm just flat out laughing. I don't see Eir Duessel being better than Gilliam just because you decide to barely give Gilliam anything at all (not even supports) Having Seth and Franz around isn't an excuse. If we're debating 2 characters, I don't care about Seth. I don't care about Franz. It's between Gilliam and Duessel.

Inui at FEFF will tell you the same thing.
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#11 bblues

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 09:39 AM

I vary it each time I play. The game is easy enough that it doesn't really matter.

Marisa is a better Assassin than Joshua, I'd have thought though.
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#12 Seraphinox

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 10:50 AM

QUOTE
Chapter 5: Suffers WTD everywhere but the top of the map, which he won't reach. I guess, if he isn't doubled, he can take hits reasonably well near the bottom...


Tanks quite easily against most enemies in the middle section of the map, leaving someone weaker to give the killing blow, or can cover the whole left section by himself.

QUOTE
Chapter 6: With proper fort/forest usage he can take hits well from many enemies and attack in return while the boss is rushed. Doesn't help here, but can help himself some.


You're not using Gill to bis full advantage here, he doesn't join the main fighting, you send him north around the mountains at the very start so that he can deal with the 3 Cavs that lie up there, they all use swords and he should easily pick them off one at a time taking minimal damage. This helps to stop those cavs come flying out o the fog and taking out one of your unsuspecting units when your guard is down.


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#13 Rujio

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE (Ledah @ Apr 2 2011, 11:47 PM)
I'm going to be frank here.

You're basically just shanking Gilliam here.

Not really.
QUOTE

Gilliam only gets doubled by anything with 7AS unless by some odd occurance you get a Heavy Spear, and the only enemy I can think of is lolMercs and lolMcCartney. Bandits do like, ~5 damage off of Gilliam out of his 25 and don't double him. Sure his hit isn't all that, but he's taking hits just fine. I don't see the problem there.

I don't have access to enemy stats on this computer, but start up a game. Brigands can reach 7 AS by Chapter 2 (some have 6, some/most? have 7)
QUOTE

He doesn't get doubled until about Ch6ish, unless in any of your levelups, he hasn't gotten a single point of speed. But even then, he can just tank using whatever's given to him in that very chapter. (ie tons of forests and forts).

He's doubled by a lot of stuff. Say he's gotten four level ups. He's got four speed now. If enemies can pull 7 AS in chapter 2, I think it's gone up to 8 by chapter 6.

QUOTE

Next chapter isn't much of a threat to him either, because the fighters aren't going to do much to him even with lolSteels because by this time he's already got C The Boulder and C Garcia, and a good 10-11 levels under his belt. You've got fine units in Garcia and The Boulder supporting you, I can't think of what the worst that could happen IMO.

35 adjacent turns with Moulder in five chapters? 40 with Garcia in like 4.8? That's averaging 7 turns next to Moulder a chapter and 8-9 next to Garcia a chapter! Sorry, but no. That isn't happening. Besides, that gives him 1 DEF and 0 ATK anyways.

QUOTE

Yes, it's documented that his Mov causes troubles. If you put him somewhere in front, he'll take a bunch of hits, and by the time he gets left behind, more than half the enemy units are gone anyhow, so it isn't that much of a big deal, until other units start promoting of course.

Sorry, but 2/3HKOing things on enemy phase isn't killing things.
QUOTE

From here on out, it's the Route Split. I have ALREADY established that Duessel crushes Gilliam in Ephraim mode. But like I said, not so much in Eirika mode. I'll get to that later.

Meanwhile...

I'm looking at the comparisons you're making between Duessel and Gilliam, and it's just so blatantly ridiculous I'm just flat out laughing. I don't see Eir Duessel being better than Gilliam just because you decide to barely give Gilliam anything at all (not even supports) Having Seth and Franz around isn't an excuse. If we're debating 2 characters, I don't care about Seth. I don't care about Franz. It's between Gilliam and Duessel.

Inui at FEFF will tell you the same thing.


Do you realize how long 40 turns adjacent is? Hardly ANYONE gets supports in this game. Like, maybe Forde and Kyle can get up to a B with each other and maybe a C with Ephraim by endgame. Probably not. Oh, and for Duessel's supports: he has one just as fast with Cormag (FAR more likely to be used long term than Garcia and far more likely to be in support range than Moulder) and has one hilariously fast with Ephraim. 30+3? That's 17 turns to C and 27 from there. Ephraim's guaranteed to be in play. And only differs in MOV by 1. So yeah.

You just get so little out of supports that it's not worth it to go out of your way to build them.

As for "barely giving him anything at all," how does Gilliam GET anything? Chapter 1 he gets like two kills and a chip at most. Not even one level up. Chapter 2 you have to get him to the front line in the first place and then he has garbage performance. Maybe a kill and a chip? So, he's leveled up once. Chapter 3 he just gets left behind. One kill? Chapter 4. He can maybe get two level ups. Now he's level 7. Chapter 5, two kills is really pushing it, but some cumulative nonkill attacks means he might hit level 8, I don't know. Chapter 6, he can get one or two, I guess ,depending on if he hit level 8 or not in 5. Then in chapter 7 his offense comes to a whopping 11 STR and never doubling anything. So 21 ATK with a Steel Lance. And 88 HIT. Before enemy AVO. Meanwhile, Franz, Garcia, Kyle, Forde, Joshua, Ephraim, Seth, and maybe even Eirika (a big maybe, I know) are doing better offensively, and at least Lute and Artur have the decency to have good accuracy and have a better range for attacking, even though they aren't killing enemies in any fewer rounds.

Which brings me to the next point: How can you ignore Seth/Franz/anyonewhoiscompetitontoGilliam? The fact is that they are great units who WILL be used and you have to take that into account to see what Gilliam's contributing. And if you want to judge them in a void of all other units, then Moulder and Garcia don't exist. Oh, and good luck with Chapter 2 now.



@Seraph
We don't need him to tank against the middle of the map. Sure, he can do it, but then Amelia can chip things with a javelin. Doesn't mean it's helpful. Sounds sorta like an extreme comparison, but when you think about it, Gill tanking requires us to slow down. The army leaving enemies for Amelia to be able to hit requires us to slow down.

I can send Gilliam around with his 4 MOV... or I can send Seth (or even Franz) around with his 8 MOV...







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#14 Fire Blazer

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:19 AM

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#15 StrongJoshua

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 04:21 PM

QUOTE (Fitz24 @ Apr 2 2011, 03:49 PM)
Making Joshua an assassin is like going against the game. He's a Swordmaster no if's and's or but's about it. He was desgned to be a swordmaster. No he doesn't look cooler as an assassin. He is a badass looking swordmaster.
His duel versus Carlyle (Chapter 14) should be swordmaster vs swordmaster.
End of story.

And Duessel is crap. You get him too late in the game. I also prefer Generals to Great Knights.

Amelia>Gilliam

I totally agree except I think Gilliams better than Amelia!
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#16 Green

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 09:39 PM

Character preference depends on play style.

#17 Bobryk

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 03:06 PM

QUOTE (Green @ Apr 21 2011, 04:39 PM)
Character preference depends on play style.


+1

For me, offense > defense, so I rarely use generals/great knights. I think Gilliam looks a bit odd as a GK (seems more natural for him to be a general, but that's just me).

I prefer ridiculously strong units who can just rush through everything, like berserkers, swordmasters, etc.

Which also means that Josh swordmaster > Josh assassin.
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#18 Zepher Tensho

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 05:20 PM

I don't use Gilliam or Duessel, they both suck deez nuts. As for Joshua, well I alternate each time I play, and I can never make up my mind which I like more.
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#19 Hawk

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 05:39 PM

ANNNNND Hi guize.

Gilliam's "lolmove" can be fixed with boots. Orwhateverthefu*kthey'recalledtheseday.
And we're talking about Gilliam as a General. Obv Gilliam GK=Duessel GK more or less.
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#20 Green

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 05:46 PM

This isnt FE4, the maps arent as big.




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