74 replies to this topic

[thedespised2166]

I'd like to know what you think is true about the world's future and much more.
Some may think the same as I on certain beliefs. Some may think differently.

Such as...
God created the world as well as the entire universe(s). But the question remains... What created god?

[Blood Falcon]

I'm an Atheist. I'll be straight up blunt here, the Old Testament is the silliest book to take seriously. Here's why, the Old Testament has talking snakes, 600 year old men, contradictory documents, and many proven impossibilities.

If Yahweh( the God of the Old Testament) is somehow real, then he is a monster. The old testament endorses rape( genesis 19:6, Genesis 19:33-34), incest(Genesis 19:33-34), slavery( Exodus 20:20-21), animal abuse( Joshua 11:6), infantcide( Joshua 6:21-27, 1 Samuel 15:2), killing for innocent mistakes( 2 Samuel 6:6-7), human sacrifice( Judges 11:30-39), kidnapping( Numbers 31:35, Deuteronomy 20:10-13), and mass genocide( too many to list).

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, blood thirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, monomaniacal, sadomasochoistic, capriciously malevolent bully."- "The God Delusion"-Richard Dawkins.( Source: The Thinking Atheist)

Jesus is imaginary too, and you can prove it in 5 minutes. Read Corinthians 15:3-8, after reading this, there are 3 important things. First, Jesus proved his resurrection by appearing to his own people. Second, it is OK for him to appear to people, he appeared to hundreds. Third, him appearing to people does not take away free will or harm faith.

Read Matthew 18:19-20, after this there are 2 important facts. According to the bible, Jesus is already here among us. Second, God will do anything we ask.

Next get a friend and make this prayer: "Dear Jesus, we already know you are here in our midst already. We ask you to show in flesh, so that we may know you have are resurrected. We have faith that you ill answer our prayer as you promise in the Bible. In your name, Amen."

If you are a rational, intelligent human being, you will know absolutely nothing. In the bible Jesus told us that he will appear in response to your prayers. Yet strangely, Jesus ignores your prayer. After this, the conclusion is simple, Jesus is imaginary and just a fictional character. If Jesus were real, he would show us that he is the resurrected son of God like he did to the people in the Bible. Instead your prayer is ignored, the fact that your prayer was ignored proves that Jesus is imaginary.

So that's why God and Jesus don't exist.( Source: Gll Video) Also if here's some rebuttles for some believers that might have excuses towards my argument.

"God disappeared in a puff of logic"- Douglas Adams.

[Zeldaicflame]

^I agree with you on that. (I also found Richard Dawkins' book to be a very interesting read).

I doubt that there is any kind of "upper being" that exists and watches over anyone. Any being of existence seems to be most illogical. With our current technology we cannot pin down how the universe began exactly, but, within the next few hundred years i think scientists may discover how it began.

[thedespised2166]

Actually... I agree...
Yes, I'm christian. Yes, I take things that involve god seriously. And yes... I'll be frank... I never read the bible. Or at least I read some but not all.

Parts of that are understanable in its own way, but I'm an ignorant christian and still believe in god.

Speaking of the bible, it needs to be fixed. Noticing the difference between the Jewish and Christian bibles, they each state theat the other religion is a sign of the devil or whatnot.

How everything was created is actually very simple... I think.
What I think is plausable is that we're going in an endless loop known as the repeating time-chain.
To make things more simple. EVerythings getting sucked into a black hole that's in the center of the unverse. Once sucked in, after a certain amount of time, it explodes, also known as the Big Bang, being that, we may repeat endlessly what we are doing right now.
Any suggestions on this plausible theory?

[Zepher Tensho]

[Seraphinox]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

-Epicurus

[Zepher Tensho]

[Zeldaicflame]

[Nils]

I believe in God. Something had to create the universe. It didn't pop up out of nowhere. People pray to God for assurance. But the outcomes of those prayers often come to contradictory remarks.

For example:

I make a 40 on a math test. Then everyone gets mad and blames me for doing badly.

I make a 100 on a math test. Then everyone forgets me and gives thanks to God.

It almost feels like God is taking all the credit for himself.

No doubt that it is proven that people like Jesus did exist. But many people made up things to glorify his birth, life, and death. They SAY Jesus was born in 0 a.d. In reality he was born in approximatley 3 or 4 a.d.

With the beginning of Christianity there was the true beginning of conversion religions. Before, religions like Hinduism had no way to convert people to their religions. When Christianity came, it was the big, "join us", kind of message. Missionaries went and converted everywhere they could. People became biased and if there was any unusual event that could lead to the proving of another religion's existance; people came and declared it "mass hysteria" and skipped over something that could be a real sign of what people call God.

Conversions were the worst part. The Aztecs and many other Native Americans were killed in thousands because they didn't convert to someone else's religion.

Later came Islam and with it, extremeists. This resulted in an infamous event that occured on September 11, 2001.

The texts that result in the deaths of thousands are all made in the name of God. In the Bible they say that people that do not accept Jesus as their God are supposed to burn in Hell. (I haven't read the Bible but a friend told me a bit about it.) In the Quaran, it states that everyone who isn't Muslim must die.

First of all, which God tells their followers to kill people? Which God says that people who do not worship them will remain in eternal torture after their death?

Napoleon once said something that is, sadly, very true in some respects.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."

Perhaps the concept of God was once a peaceful and honorable pursuit. But extremeists, hysterical beliefs, and mass conversion fervor have turned it into a reason to cause death.

[Blood Falcon]

[bblues]

[thedespised2166]

Well I wouldn't say the CENTER of the universe, but maybe smewhere else...
Either way, you're correct on the universe expanding the way it is, but it'll all soon come to a halt.

Now other then that, yes, that does pose many questions about god.
Why would he create us?
Why would he create the devil?

I think maybe god is just... 'playing a game'.
Not sure how to explain it, but to make things simpler..., it's like god is playing the Sims.
I didn't exactly want that to be a joke, but really it's all that I can think of.

[bblues]

Uh, God didn't create the devil as the devil. He's just a fallen angel.

[Zepher Tensho]

[Zeldaicflame]

[bblues]

Uh yeah, the reason he became a fallen angel is what made him the commonly referred to devil. Reason being that he tried to become more than god, and got cast down, and was called a devil.

[thedespised2166]

Even so, Lucifer was created by god as an angel.

Either waaaay~...

Well with the government becoming a little mad with power (And progressing as well), and when the tracking of the thoughts become complete, they'll try and learn mind control.

Sorry (Click Here To Hide/Show Text)

Had my mind on other things. I wasn't sure how to word that...

[w00t]

wow there is a lot of loaded words in this discussion it kinda sounds like bitterness, but thats beside the point

I usually stray from posting about these kinds of topics on forums because most people have their minds made up and they dont like to budge in their beliefs because it means that they have to acknowledge they were wrong

but I feel that the other side should be represented so here it goes


In response to the first post: you asked what created God if God created the universe?

my answer:
first - the truth is, God does not have a beginning or an end. God being a holy being (btw holy literally means 'set apart' for those of you who dont know) He operates outside of our understanding. Our understanding is that things have a beginning and an end, but since God is a higher being, He does not have to be bound by our understanding.

second - it really is pointless to keep asking what created _____ because you could keep asking that for eternity and get nowhere. there are really only two options: intelligent design by God, or random chance by way of big bang.

evidence for intelligent design - this excerpt if from the book "The Case for Creator" (just in case you are interested for further reading) by Lee Strobel, a former athiest and journalist of the Chicago Tribune, who interviewed Professor Robin Collins, his education and credentials: Collins triple majored in physics, mathematics, and philosophy at Washington State University and graduated with a 3.93 (O_O) (if any of you are in college you know how incredibly hard that is) along with a PHD in philosophy.
here is a paraphrase so I dont have to quote a whole section of the book:
Imagine a ruler that streches all the way across the universe. that ruler measures and controls forces in nature like gravity and nuclear force that binds atoms together and its units are in inches which would mean it spans billions and billions and billions of inches
If you move that measurement of natural forces over even one inch from where it currently is, that alone would increase gravity by a billion-fold and then we would all die

this is just the concept of gravity and there are a lot more parameters that the universe needs to sustain life and they are all so fine tuned that the forces and conditions are perfect for life
the chances of this happening randomly are slim to none.

Fact: it would be easier to take all of a watch's parts and stick it in a box and shake it until it assembles a fully functional watch then it would to randomly pick settings for parameters on the universe for life, or even a universe that doesnt just destroy itself for that matter.

oh and btw there are countless other professors who agree with this concept of a finely tuned universe...mainly because if you actually research it...its true

it would take more faith to believe that this randomly happened by chance then it would to believe that an intelligent designer created the universe this way.

physics has spoken. there is an intelligent designer.

we may not actually know how the universe was created, but what we do know (through scientific research) that the universe has so many set parameters that are necessary for life that are so finely tuned and specific that points towards creationism or the idea of an intelligent design


Next part of my post,

there was one post where someone was posting things from the Bible with the intent of making the Old Testament sound bad

anyway some facts about the Old Testament (and New Testament for that matter)
the Old Testament references historical events and historical people that did happen and did exist like there was a king named of Babylon called Nebuchadnezzer (or however you spell it) the Roman Empire did exist and so did Ceaser uhh there was a King Xerses (not like in 300)

these things have been cross-referenced with other sources and found that the time periods are correct

evidence wise, the Bible has thousands more ancient copies than any other historical document and it is the most well preserved from copy to copy

ok that stuff is fact


Now when you read the Bible, you have to understand it was written hundreds to thousands of years ago (i state a range because the NT is newer than the OT, *side trivia note* that blank page between the end of the OT and the NT in Bibles represents 400 years)
that being said, it was written in a completely different culture that we have to understand in order to understand the text itself. This is what people call context. you have to know the context of the situation and the text in order to understand it.

example: you are playing fire emblem, but you hear your mom or something coming to see if you are doing your homework so you hide the game and act like you are looking at your textbook. your mom would completely misunderstand the context if she did not try to actually figure out what you were doing
I hope that makes sense


the passages that person stated before will serve as my examples

Genesis 19 (the person references verse 6 in particular I will talk the passage as a whole)
this chapter mainly tells us about a guy named Lot and his family who live in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and actually the names of these cities are where we get the words "sodomy" and a certain STD - i will not talk about those because i think its disgusting.
anyway these cities were known for their rape, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, prostitution etc and these cities was what many people would call wicked or evil kinds of cities
It would take a really long time to tell you why Lot was there in the first place so ill skip it.

Anyway the verse in question says that these two people (who were actually angels) came to Sodom and Lot invited them to be his guests because he didnt want them to stay somewhere public (which they were going to do) because he knew they would be raped.

And this is where historical and cultural context comes in because in that time period, hospitality was everything to these people. its like how in the US for the younger generation it is really hard to get a good job without an education and it is hard to be credible without sources and stuff.

back then if you were not hospitable to your guests, you were the outcast of the town. you were considered like the lowest kind of person. no one would want to associate with you because the people just valued hospitality so much
so for Lot to invite these two into his home meant that he would basically stake everything on make sure that these two would be taken care of because if he didnt, he wouldnt be anything to society anyway

So in the passage, locals from Sodom come to Lot's house and demand that he would allow the locals to rape the two angles

NO WHERE DOES IT SAY GOD ENDORSES RAPE

the end.

If you want i can refute the other arguements too it would take a while tho lol
If you guys really try to find out what the Bible means, you will find out
not just some half-assed attempt


Now about God giving us everything we ask for

NOT TRUE and you totally misinterpreted the context of the passage again

we can all say that we are not perfect and a lot about faith has to do with intent
basically what your true intentions are behind your actions

and for those of you who do not know, the Bible was first written in like Greek and Hebrew
and Greek words have a lot of meaning that cannot be translated to English so some of the words in the Bible do not carry the meanings they were supposed to like in the original Greek

the Bible does say things like Matthew 18:19-20 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

however to correctly interpret this passage, you have to look at the verses before and look at what the chapter as a whole is talking about because the Bible doesnt throw random things in there. each verse has a purpose and it all makes sense if you study it, just like another book that builds up to a climax or a point that the author wants to get across.

the verses directly before (v15-18) basically talk about calling out your friend if you know they are doing something wrong.

why would these two things be right next to each other?
it is because these passages are not referring to just asking God for like a candy bar or $1,000
but they refer to receiving God's guidance on making a discipline decision

first we must understand the context:
the preceding passages it walks you through a process step by step and basically the first step is to confront your friend first. (if anyone that is following along wants to know why it says 'brother' in the Bible it is because true Christians acknowledge the fact that our commonality that we believe in Jesus brings us close like family) Second step, if the friend does not listen to you, is to confront your friend with someone else who believes that what the person is doing is wrong so that "ever matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses"
this says that these two or three 'witnesses' need to agree first on what is wrong and they need to make sure that what the friend in question is doing is indeed wrong. thus later in verse 19 Jesus further says that when you and other witnesses are deciding to confront your friend that you should make sure that what you guys are going is in fact the right thing to do. and Jesus says the way to make sure is to ask God the Father if it is the right thing to do.

verse 20 is referring to the fact that usually if one person thinks something is wrong, one way to see if it really is wrong is by gathering with another believer and seeing if they see the same thing is wrong. because christians believe that God can guide our decisions and one way that He does that is through affirmation from other people who are believers as well.

so yeah this is a really long post
If you guys actually care and want to know the truth, read it

if not, thats your decision

edit*
Oh and i forgot to say that if you are really interested in further reading and apologetics (def. proving the Bible and Jesus and all of it is real)

then I highly recommend
The Case for a Creator
and
The Case for Christ
both by Lee Strobel who as I said before is the atheist that became a Christian after he went on a quest to disprove the Bible by doing his homework and interviewing the scholars and professors that have actually done their research

these books are a result of that quest

btw Lee Strobel has a degree in Law from Yale and obviously lawyers are trained to be skeptics and to a pry and ask all the questions they can to get the answers they want

[Ezra]

woah, that's a lot of info, but I read it and I'm glad you posted here, my dad told me about Lee Strobel who became a Christian after trying to disprove it. I agree and am interested by everything you said and you had a great arguement for what was previously said in this topic.

[w00t]