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Remember when I used to like the Cavs?


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#1 Fire Blazer

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 12:48 AM

Well, now they suck.

Everytime I see them they're getting blown out. Even if they didn't suck I'd still be convinced they were.

Losing 8-19 already? Seriously? And IIRC the time before that they were getting their score like, doubled or something close to that. Like, a 30-40 point deficit or something crazy. >_> come on

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#2 kirant

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 05:04 AM

QUOTE (Blazer @ Dec 13 2013, 05:48 PM)
Well, now they suck.

Having a classless franchise player bail on UFA kind of does that to teams. Especially in a sport where one star make such a huge difference (IE - in a different sport, like football, a single player might not be the difference between being a marginal playoff team and a basement dweller)

Join the club of cheering for losing teams though. I support the Saskatchewan Roughriders (worst championship game record in the league) and Calgary Flames (currently rebuilding).

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#3 bblues

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:53 AM

QUOTE (kirant @ Dec 14 2013, 05:04 AM)

Having a classless franchise player bail on UFA kind of does that to teams.


'The Decision' might not have been the right way to leave, but leaving? The Cavs front office were (and still are) terrible in actually putting a team together. Leaving to win trophies isn't 'classless' - trying to break somebody's legs in a tackle on purpose is 'classless'. Although, I'm sick of the term 'classy'.



The Raptors suck, we'll always suck, Reading look like they'll forever be a yo-yo team (or worse). Unless you gloryhunt, you generally end up with a team that's utter bull, and that's fine with me. Reading lose their best players almost every season, the Raptors let T-Mac go, ****ed up with VC, and never did anything notable in trying to do shit around Bosh.




As for the Cavs sucking. Yeahhh, they've picked 1-4-4-1 in the last few drafts. They're still crap. Kyrie is literally only decent player. They've ****ed up drafting, badly. However...they're half a game back on the 8th seed.





#4 Fire Blazer

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:16 PM

lol I honestly don't even keep up with basketball but I pretty much only get negative vibes from whatever I happen to pick up lol

ironically that game I was watching where they were initially getting crushed, they came back to win... haha, whatever though

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#5 kirant

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:52 PM

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 01:53 AM)
'The Decision' might not have been the right way to leave, but leaving? The Cavs front office were (and still are) terrible in actually putting a team together. Leaving to win trophies isn't 'classless' - trying to break somebody's legs in a tackle on purpose is 'classless'. Although, I'm sick of the term 'classy'.

Leaving and giving your team nothing in return is pretty classless when you are basically the team. At least politely and quietly ask for a trade first and give the team a chance to recoup some of the lost assets. There would be n-1 teams wanting him, where n is the number of teams in the league and those teams would pony up boatloads of futures for a generational talent calibre player. That way you and the team leave on good terms and you both benefit.

If you make it clear to management that you want out and you are that important, management won't sit on their hands and count down the clock until you are let go (unless they're insane). The pragmatic thing to do is to get something right now for what you might end up getting nothing for later. If they refuse to trade you despite you refusing to re-sign with the team, then you can make an ass out of yourself.

If you want to hunt trophies as a freelance player, do it at the end of your career. The coolest acts I can remember are Ray Bourque and Lanny Mcdonald winning it all in their last season. Really, Bourque was in the same spot James was his whole career: he played on a middling team and heavily propped them up. When it was clear he'd never make it with the Bruins, he was shipped off, now a regressing veteran to the Avalanche (at the time, the most stacked team in the league). That's why it's so beautiful and memorable when the Avalanche take him there in his final year.

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#6 bblues

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:56 PM

@Blazer: That's because it's only been lottery the last few years, and the shock horror of bad drafting. The Raptors base has been like that for years, not even a whiff of playoffs.

QUOTE (kirant @ Dec 14 2013, 10:52 PM)
Leaving and giving your team nothing in return is pretty classless when you are basically the team.  At least politely and quietly ask for a trade first and give the team a chance to recoup some of the lost assets.  There would be n-1 teams wanting him, where n is the number of teams in the league and those teams would pony up boatloads of futures for a generational talent calibre player.  That way you and the team leave on good terms and you both benefit.

If you make it clear to management that you want out and you are that important, management won't sit on their hands and count down the clock until you are let go (unless they're insane).  The pragmatic thing to do is to get something right now for what you might end up getting nothing for later.  If they refuse to trade you despite you refusing to re-sign with the team, then you can make an ass out of yourself. 

If you want to hunt trophies as a freelance player, do it at the end of your career.  The coolest acts I can remember are Ray Bourque and Lanny Mcdonald winning it all in their last season.  Really, Bourque was in the same spot James was his whole career: he played on a middling team and heavily propped them up.  When it was clear he'd never make it with the Bruins, he was shipped off, now a regressing veteran to the Avalanche (at the time, the most stacked team in the league).  That's why it's so beautiful and memorable when the Avalanche take him there in his final year.


If you're a one man team, then it's the management who have failed. It was clear he was going to test FA, and if front office can't see that and plan for it, is it really his fault to leave and play with teammates he wants to, and a FO that is interested in winning?

Teams don't give up masses for another team's want-away star. Look at trades like VC, Howard, Harden. Teams got relatively little in terms of long-term talent or decent picks. Nobody would've staked much on half a year of LeBron when he was nowhere near certain to stick around.

Yeah, some players hunt when they're in their twilight, and it's noted. But some players want to win in their prime. In soccer, at least there's the possibility of winning multiple trophies while at one team. But look at Lewandoski. Massive player for Dortmund, great support, won trophies, etc. He's going to leave for nothing, probably to Bayern. It's been public, it upset quite a few fans, but it's not classless.

Besides, it goes both ways: look at Paul Pierce. He would have finished a lifelong Celtic, but FO smelt a deal and sent him packing.

#7 kirant

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:20 AM

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 03:56 PM)
@Blazer: That's because it's only been lottery the last few years, and the shock horror of bad drafting. The Raptors base has been like that for years, not even a whiff of playoffs.

Welcome to Calgary.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 03:56 PM)
If you're a one man team, then it's the management who have failed. It was clear he was going to test FA, and if front office can't see that and plan for it, is it really his fault to leave and play with teammates he wants to, and a FO that is interested in winning?

I think there's no reason to doubt that he should be allowed to pursue winning. However, as a large player, he must realize the aspect he has on his team. To be fair to the team, he should first give his GM notification and request a trade if he has no intention of staying. A prudent GM will then explore his options and try to get returns. Unless there is owner interference, an expectation to win the championship that year, or a mandate for playoffs or bust, they'll be moving him.

There's an extremely famous example of Eric Lindros. When drafted, he publicly stated he'd never play for the team that drafted him (Nordiques). After a short dispute, he was traded away. This trade actually did end up benefiting the team that took him (the Flyers made him their franchise man while he was healthy), and the Nordiques eventually became the franchise calibre Avalanche described earlier, due in great part to this trade.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 03:56 PM)
Teams don't give up masses for another team's want-away star. Look at trades like VC, Howard, Harden. Teams got relatively little in terms of long-term talent or decent picks. Nobody would've staked much on half a year of LeBron when he was nowhere near certain to stick around.

I'm not sure if the NBA allows conditionals, but quite a few trades are done based on the concept that you send a token over, then a much bigger sum if they manage to sign them.

Many leagues also allow under the table negotiations...that you can talk to the player and their agent before acquiring them. Such that you can make handshake agreements on a new contract (especially in the flimsy soft cap the NBA has) and that there's little to no risk that the player will bolt and only play from trade deadline to end of the season.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 03:56 PM)
But some players want to win in their prime.

But why, of course, is the question. Unless you're in a sport which kicks teams up and down leagues like international football, your team isn't going anywhere and a win still feels as good as a win at any other point in their career.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 03:56 PM)
Besides, it goes both ways: look at Paul Pierce. He would have finished a lifelong Celtic, but FO smelt a deal and sent him packing.

Context is key here. What was the Celtic's situation at the time? If they were on the slow descent down, many lifetime players will agree to move if it benefits the team. A fairly famous example as of last season was the Flames' Jarome Iginla. He probably has something very close to the LeBron James situation: he is on a team where it's basically all on him (and the goaltender and my avatar, Kiprusoff) to make the playoffs every year. On a half decent team, he would have been a massive force. He plays very much like James in the sense that he had garbage players around him and their mandate every year was to make the playoffs. Just make it. And he never demanded a trade or forced himself to UFA, despite the fact that he never really got help. And when time came that the needed to kickstart a rebuild, he accepted to be traded (having the right to deny any trade if he wanted to).

Maybe I'm spoiled because Iginla was the man who shelled out money out of his own pocket to get fans a hotel room when he went to the Olympics (fans been living in their cars to make ends meet asa they burned any spare money they had on tickets to watch Team Canada), brought out the entire Flames team to shake hands with a divisional rival player to celebrate his last game, and tried to downplay the attention he got in his first game back (which became a 2 minute standing ovation). Or maybe it's because I am spoiled watching Sakic give first dibs on raising the championship Stanley Cup to long time waiting Ray Bourque first instead of taking the first lift himself. Or maybe it's because I watch Yzerman skate the Stanley Cup over to a player who didn't play for the team all year because he was now wheelchair bound after an accident.

Whatever the case, there's a chasm wide difference between the players I see and the actions James takes.

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#8 bblues

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:35 AM

QUOTE (kirant @ Dec 15 2013, 12:20 AM)
I think there's no reason to doubt that he should be allowed to pursue winning.  However, as a large player, he must realize the aspect he has on his team.  To be fair to the team, he should first give his GM notification and request a trade if he has no intention of staying.  A prudent GM will then explore his options and try to get returns.  Unless there is owner interference, an expectation to win the championship that year, or a mandate for playoffs or bust, they'll be moving him.


And there was the expectation of a championship that year. I also feel that the FO seemed to have taken silence as agreement. Was it wrong to tell them he was moving right before the decision? Maybe, but he never had to. Being fair to the team? Do you mean the fans, or the management? The management could be considered to have been unfair to him as a player by squandering some of his best years. Fans are fickle bastards, just look at the last time the Heat played the Cavs. LeBron, or any player, has no obligation to the team, or its fans, past the point of being a player for their team under contract.

QUOTE
There's an extremely famous example of Eric Lindros.  When drafted, he publicly stated he'd never play for the team that drafted him (Nordiques).  After a short dispute, he was traded away.  This trade actually did end up benefiting the team that took him (the Flyers made him their franchise man while he was healthy), and the Nordiques eventually became the franchise calibre Avalanche described earlier, due in great part to this trade.


I'd argue it's a rarity. Gareth Bale left to Real Madrid for ~£85m, and Tottenham have reinvested that in players. Is it working? As of right now, not really. Can be said about AC Milan and Kaka to Madrid as well. Look at the Carter trade. When he 'quit', what did Toronto get? Bugger all. Did any team win in the Howard trade? Not really.

QUOTE
I'm not sure if the NBA allows conditionals


Many leagues also allow under the table negotiations...that you can talk to the player and their agent before acquiring them.  Such that you can make handshake agreements on a new contract (especially in the flimsy soft cap the NBA has) and that there's little to no risk that the player will bolt and only play from trade deadline to end of the season.


Conditional picks? Yeah, and they're normally protected heavily.

Tapping up a player is illegal in Soccer. The Harden deal was only done with the agreement that he'd sign an extension. The Howard deal had no such thing, and he left. Again, is the player at fault? No, it's the GM.

QUOTE
But why, of course, is the question.  Unless you're in a sport which kicks teams up and down leagues like international football, your team isn't going anywhere and a win still feels as good as a win at any other point in their career.

Does it though? Is winning a title on 4-5mpg, or not even playing. really feel the same as winning when you're a starter, a star driving the team to a win? I'd argue it doesn't, and when it comes to the history books, it matters to players (and shit critics). Do rings matter? Yeah, to some players.

QUOTE
Context is key here.  What was the Celtic's situation at the time?  If they were on the slow descent down, many lifetime players will agree to move if it benefits the team.  A fairly famous example as of last season was the Flames' Jarome Iginla.  He probably has something very close to the LeBron James situation: he is on a team where it's basically all on him (and the goaltender and my avatar, Kiprusoff) to make the playoffs every year.  On a half decent team, he would have been a massive force.  He plays very much like James in the sense that he had garbage players around him and their mandate every year was to make the playoffs.  Just make it.  And he never demanded a trade or forced himself to UFA, despite the fact that he never really got help.  And when time came that the needed to kickstart a rebuild, he accepted to be traded (having the right to deny any trade if he wanted to).


Yes, but Pierce didn't have a choice. The thing here is that a player will get hell for 'quitting a team' in the interest of winning, or signing a deal like Kobe, but the organization gets absolutely no flak for trading away in the interest of winning (or in some cases, losing). That's my issue. Loyalty to a team gets you what? If a player wants to leave at the end of his contract, then you can't complain. It's not 'classless', it's not disloyal in the slightest.

QUOTE
Whatever the case, there's a chasm wide difference between the players I see and the actions James takes.


Hang on, it was one action.

#9 Fire Blazer

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:46 AM

Ultimately all I can say is that I stopped following basketball because I didn't like the general atmosphere of the NBA, whether it was trades, drafting, individual players, coaches, managers, whoever or whatever that did it, eventually I just couldn't enjoy following a league that felt so messed up. It wasn't as soon as he-who-shall-not-be-named left either, it dawned on me after how silly the whole thing was and that I'd be better off not investing myself into something that felt kinda hopeless and demoralizing.

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#10 bblues

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:54 AM

QUOTE (Blazer @ Dec 15 2013, 01:46 AM)
something that felt kinda hopeless and demoralizing.


Yeah, but...that's what being a fan is about laugh.gif

#11 Fire Blazer

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:18 AM

I know, call me a fake fan, I'm okay with that lol. I gave up. I'm a quitter. Not worth it. I suffered enough, and though putting up with it to finally get some really rewarding and satisfying ending might be great, I don't think it'll happen and it's a risk I'm willing to take lol. Still, I wish the Cavs the best... after all, I'd like to remove that line from my signature eventually. >_________>;

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#12 bblues

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:29 AM

QUOTE (Blazer @ Dec 15 2013, 02:18 AM)
Still, I wish the Cavs the best... after all, I'd like to remove that line from my signature eventually. >_________>;


Unfortunately, I know that feel as well.

bblues looks down at his own signature sadly, and wonders whether he was on something back then.

#13 kirant

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:46 AM

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 06:35 PM)
I also feel that the FO seemed to have taken silence as agreement. Was it wrong to tell them he was moving right before the decision? Maybe, but he never had to. Being fair to the team? Do you mean the fans, or the management? The management could be considered to have been unfair to him as a player by squandering some of his best years. Fans are fickle bastards, just look at the last time the Heat played the Cavs. LeBron, or any player, has no obligation to the team, or its fans, past the point of being a player for their team under contract.

The first part is just purely hearsay and conjecture. We really can't confirm if he actually gave management a chance to work out something that benefits them both.

Fairness in regards to the team that brought him in. That's fans and management both. You need to give the franchise a proper opportunity to brace itself for your loss. Recouping your value is one method for that.

Management tries to work with him though. They try to set him up for success in what they need him to do. Signing someone big, then telling him "we want to make the playoffs and you're integral, but here's something you can't work with" makes no sense. Did the players on their depth chart not fit his style (something I'm unaware of, having no true knowledge of their team)? Maybe. But the intent is there to help him along since he's the cornerstone of the team. They aren't technically "wrecking him" by destroying his development. He's a perfectly developed player and his life as a generational talent proves it. They can't get him a good team to play with. There are countless examples of this across many leagues (Tavares of the Islanders, Halladay of the Blue Jays) and it's certain that they could have been much better had they been on a "good team". Going back to Iginla, if he played with players resembling anything close to skill (he played with journeyman players for most of his career), he'd easily be much bigger in the stats sheet. But the management tries the best they can with what they have. And that's all you can ask of them once they've been given their mandate by owner and president.

I think that may be a sport based thing. Many hockey franchises, for example, create a friendly reputation with their players. They love the fans of a city and the fans love them back. A crap load of them love the community they work with and become huge parts of the community. For example, Oilers fans were still proud and were alright with franchise man Gretzky when he was a Ranger, a King, a Blue. These are fans with memory and want to see the player succeed even if they aren't on their team anymore. Ask virtually any Flames fan and we want to see Iginla light up the lamp. The day he was traded, commentators joked "the Penguins gained million more fans".

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 06:35 PM)
I'd argue it's a rarity. Gareth Bale left to Real Madrid for ~£85m, and Tottenham have reinvested that in players. Is it working? As of right now, not really. Can be said about AC Milan and Kaka to Madrid as well. Look at the Carter trade. When he 'quit', what did Toronto get? Bugger all. Did any team win in the Howard trade? Not really.

I don't know enough about either of those franchises to speak as to what happened or what the relative returns are. But the situations I've seen where players privately request trades have become huge successes. If players publicly sulk about it and complain, their value plummets and the trading team has to deal with a known decreasing value.

Sometimes how public the breakup is makes it a problem since all GMs have their ears to the ground and know the public value of a player. For example, Alex Tanguay, a fairly standard player asked quietly for a trade and got himself into a city and situation which was great for him. He did alright as he didn't want to be with the coach. The players the team got in return were quality and one of them had a breakout year. Conversely, Patrick Roy, argued to be the best goaltender ever, publicly told the media that it was his last game as a Canadien [sic], and got traded for peanuts. Montreal got destroyed on the trade.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 06:35 PM)
Tapping up a player is illegal in Soccer. The Harden deal was only done with the agreement that he'd sign an extension. The Howard deal had no such thing, and he left. Again, is the player at fault? No, it's the GM.

Again, not enough context to determine who's fault it was. Maybe if you provide a basic description of what went on and how good each of these players are.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 06:35 PM)
Does it though? Is winning a title on 4-5mpg, or not even playing. really feel the same as winning when you're a starter, a star driving the team to a win? I'd argue it doesn't, and when it comes to the history books, it matters to players (and shit critics). Do rings matter? Yeah, to some players.

I'd argue it should.

Unless you're in an individual sport, it's important to know that you're not the only important thing on a team. You are simply a part of it. When you skate, you're on a 20 man team. When you take to the gridiron field, you're in a cast of many. I think basketball creates a culture of individualism because of the fact that each piece is so important.

What it simply comes down to, in this aspect, is desire to play the game compared to desire to be individually effective. The best players to watch...the Sakics, the Yzermans, the Iginlas that I talk so much about...they love to play. Steve Yzerman late in his career and far past his prime took contracts way below his market value so the team he played for could better manage its (hard ceiling in hockey) salary cap. The killers for me are always the player who makes the game about themselves and what THEY did for the team, not that the team did something collectively.

What I'm thinking can easily be summarized by this image:
user posted image

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 06:35 PM)
Yes, but Pierce didn't have a choice. The thing here is that a player will get hell for 'quitting a team' in the interest of winning, or signing a deal like Kobe, but the organization gets absolutely no flak for trading away in the interest of winning (or in some cases, losing). That's my issue. Loyalty to a team gets you what? If a player wants to leave at the end of his contract, then you can't complain. It's not 'classless', it's not disloyal in the slightest.

Management has a problem here. No matter what they do, to someone, they'll look foolish. If they don't trade an aging piece like Pierce, they might get called sentimental and stupid for not cashing him in for any remaining value before he retires. If they do trade him, they get people heckling them for being a jerk and easily forgetting how much he did as a...whatever position he played. GMs are the people expected to make the tough calls. A lot of these guys know these players personally (at least in hockey, for example) and are really torn when they have to move a franchise player. Or any player for that matter. It hurt, for example, for GM Jay Feaster to step in front of media to say that he was trading Iginla off. Even though the painting was on the wall and the best they could do for him was to move him to a competitive team, you could see he was trying to pick his words carefully because of how hard it was for him to state it.

Loyalty to a team gets you quite a bit I think if you're a big player. Especially in fan favour (which translates into legacy...something the self conscious player likely wants). Even if you have a short career outside it, you're still know as a quintessential [team name]. No matter how long he spent outside Edmonton (about half his career), he's known as an Edmonton Oiler. Ray Bourque spend 2 years outside Boston, but will forever be remember as an amazing Bruin. I don't know how many years Iginla will spend pursuing a Stanley Cup, but he'll always be known as THE Calgary Flame.

I think it'll likely be that you'll remember Pierce as a Celtic, even if he plays a year or two outside there.

By the by, I will always call it classless to intentionally lose games. Kickstart a rebuild and get prospects/picks early...that's fine. Lose because your team isn't good and it's full of young guns? Fine. But playing to lose to stack the lottery odds in your favour is just against the intention and a dumb act.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 06:35 PM)
Hang on, it was one action.

James has a habit of being a baby. Flat out. You get lots of people talking about him being a poor sport.

Those exist in every sport (the Vancouver Canucks started looking to hurt the soon to be champion Boston Bruins at the end of a blowout). But James has racked up quite a bit of reputation.

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#14 bblues

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:03 AM

QUOTE
The first part is just purely hearsay and conjecture.  We really can't confirm if he actually gave management a chance to work out something that benefits them both.


Did management ever reach out and try to gauge the situation? Nobody's going to tell the truth.

QUOTE
Fairness in regards to the team that brought him in.  That's fans and management both.  You need to give the franchise a proper opportunity to brace itself for your loss.  Recouping your value is one method for that. 


The opportunity and time frame for loss is the contract, when he can walk if he wants. I place blame on the management again, they should have had a contingency or 20 when the league's biggest player is entering FA at the end of the season, and half the teams are clearing cap to try and get him. People were talking about Lebron/Wade/Bosh teaming up in some way or form in that FA for a long time (Olympics 08). Rumours about Paul and LeBron as well. It was hardly out of the blue that he might leave.

QUOTE
Management tries to work with him though.  They try to set him up for success in what they need him to do.  Signing someone big, then telling him "we want to make the playoffs and you're integral, but here's something you can't work with" makes no sense.  Did the players on their depth chart not fit his style (something I'm unaware of, having no true knowledge of their team)?  Maybe.  But the intent is there to help him along since he's the cornerstone of the team.  They aren't technically "wrecking him" by destroying his development.  He's a perfectly developed player and his life as a generational talent proves it.  They can't get him a good team to play with.


It wasn't a style thing for the most part, it's that the players were literally not good enough. I'm not saying they wrecked his development, but they wreck his chance for success in terms of winning titles. He had to carry his team offensively for basically every game, including playoffs, and even then, he dragged other players into something better (Mo Williams got an All-Star game how?). But it was apparent that he needed at least one other player who was a star.

QUOTE
There are countless examples of this across many leagues (Tavares of the Islanders, Halladay of the Blue Jays) and it's certain that they could have been much better had they been on a "good team".  Going back to Iginla, if he played with players resembling anything close to skill (he played with journeyman players for most of his career), he'd easily be much bigger in the stats sheet.  But the management tries the best they can with what they have.  And that's all you can ask of them once they've been given their mandate by owner and president.


Maybe, but if so, it was bad, and if he wanted to win, it was getting clear he'd have to move.

QUOTE
I think that may be a sport based thing.  Many hockey franchises, for example, create a friendly reputation with their players.  They love the fans of a city and the fans love them back.  A crap load of them love the community they work with and become huge parts of the community.  For example, Oilers fans were still proud and were alright with franchise man Gretzky when he was a Ranger, a King, a Blue.  These are fans with memory and want to see the player succeed even if they aren't on their team anymore.  Ask virtually any Flames fan and we want to see Iginla light up the lamp.  The day he was traded, commentators joked "the Penguins gained million more fans".


I think a lot of fans feel that connection. It happens a lot in soccer. But it's the manner of departure that can also seriously change a fan's image of the player. Look at the decision (but also see how they're all clamouring for him to come back in the next FA, just like how he left. Sports fans.).

QUOTE
Sometimes how public the breakup is makes it a problem since all GMs have their ears to the ground and know the public value of a player.  For example, Alex Tanguay, a fairly standard player asked quietly for a trade and got himself into a city and situation which was great for him.  He did alright as he didn't want to be with the coach.  The players the team got in return were quality and one of them had a breakout year.  Conversely, Patrick Roy, argued to be the best goaltender ever, publicly told the media that it was his last game as a Canadien [sic], and got traded for peanuts.  Montreal got destroyed on the trade.


I agree, but contract year destroys value in a similar way. A team knows the other side could end up losing the player for nothing, and thus lowball offers start to arrive.

QUOTE
Again, not enough context to determine who's fault it was.  Maybe if you provide a basic description of what went on and how good each of these players are.


Howard, at Orlando was a legitimate superstar centre. However, he wanted out (for championships, citing lack of roster effort), and forced a trade to LA (after accepting his extension with the Magic). The Lakers knew he had the one season and then FA would come when they were making this trade. Season plays out, he struggles to settle, Lakers brass aren't massively helpful, he starts to complain again. Plays better second half of the season, leaves money on the table to join Houston and Harden, Lakers shocked that somebody said no to them, and sticking them in the flux of this year.

Harden was part of a trio of stars on OKC (amazing chemistry, just missed out in finals), Harden would be a free agent next year, and it'd probably push the OKC over luxury. Instead of playing out the season and trying to win it all, OKC basically jettisoned Harden to Houston (who prmptly signed an extension) for Kevin Martin (a downgrade). OKC then proceeded to lose to the trio of Spurs. OKC had tried to lowball Harden, but he rejected it.

QUOTE
I'd argue it should. 

Unless you're in an individual sport, it's important to know that you're not the only important thing on a team.  You are simply a part of it.  When you skate, you're on a 20 man team.  When you take to the gridiron field, you're in a cast of many.  I think basketball creates a culture of individualism because of the fact that each piece is so important. 

What it simply comes down to, in this aspect, is desire to play the game compared to desire to be individually effective.  The best players to watch...the Sakics, the Yzermans, the Iginlas that I talk so much about...they love to play.  Steve Yzerman late in his career and far past his prime took contracts way below his market value so the team he played for could better manage its (hard ceiling in hockey) salary cap.  The killers for me are always the player who makes the game about themselves and what THEY did for the team, not that the team did something collectively.


The importance of a superstar/multiple stars is key in basketball because it tends to be what pushes a team over, I agree, but nobody wins on their own in basketball anymore. One winning team in the last ten years that lacked any clear 'stars' was the Pistons in 2004, and you could argue Sheed and Billups. Lebron, Wade and Bosh took a bit off their contracts to play together and win. No, I don't think you can doubt LeBron's love for the game, and he's one of the best team players in the game right now. He makes his team better as a whole, not just himself.

I'd argue that the importance of an individual will always exist in team sports. Soccer is probably the best example in one player pushing a team past what it should do.

QUOTE
What I'm thinking can easily be summarized by this image:
user posted image


Really? I'd love to see what he was being asked there, probably questions about him, not the team. In his MVP speech, he said the only reason he was there was because of the team. Is 'All I care about is the team's success' a sign of selfishness, really?

QUOTE
Management has a problem here.  No matter what they do, to someone, they'll look foolish.  If they don't trade an aging piece like Pierce, they might get called sentimental and stupid for not cashing him in for any remaining value before he retires.  If they do trade him, they get people heckling them for being a jerk and easily forgetting how much he did as a...whatever position he played.  GMs are the people expected to make the tough calls.  A lot of these guys know these players personally (at least in hockey, for example) and are really torn when they have to move a franchise player.  Or any player for that matter.  It hurt, for example, for GM Jay Feaster to step in front of media to say that he was trading Iginla off.  Even though the painting was on the wall and the best they could do for him was to move him to a competitive team, you could see he was trying to pick his words carefully because of how hard it was for him to state it.


I won't argue that being a GM is tough, but my issue is more that they receive far less flack than the players, arguably for messing up planning more. In soccer, the clubs get a lot at the managers, never really the director of football (unless it gets seriously bad), but at least the higher ups are (on the whole) propping the teams up on massive losses. NBA players take a massive amount, when they've been screwed over by the owners in the CBA, and the fans won't even think to blame a GM for messing up (though this is starting). The decision, and Dwightmare did a bit for that: if you can't help your star out, another team will happily do that for you.

QUOTE
Loyalty to a team gets you quite a bit I think if you're a big player. Especially in fan favour (which translates into legacy...something the self conscious player likely wants).


Again, I agree to an extent. But the thing is...you need that competent front office. San Antonio did that. The Lakers, on the whole, have done that. The Celtics have done that (much as I hate the trade, it has worked out well). The Heat have done what Cleveland clearly couldn't (but props to them for that #1 pick they nabbed off the Clippers).

QUOTE
By the by, I will always call it classless to intentionally lose games.  Kickstart a rebuild and get prospects/picks early...that's fine.  Lose because your team isn't good and it's full of young guns?  Fine.  But playing to lose to stack the lottery odds in your favour is just against the intention and a dumb act.


But trying to get good lottery picks is the way back up again for teams. The lottery itself is counter-intuitive because it promotes bad play. In Europe, you get relegated, you might never make it back up. You might even go down again. You have to improve, or you're gone.

QUOTE
James has a habit of being a baby.  Flat out.  You get lots of people talking about him being a poor sport.

Those exist in every sport (the Vancouver Canucks started looking to hurt the soon to be champion Boston Bruins at the end of a blowout).  But James has racked up quite a bit of reputation.


Yes, lots of people talked about him being a poor sport in the within a year either side of the decision. Those stopped very quickly once he won a ring, and then the opposite occurred. The media will chat shit about anyone if they get a good enough opportunity, once you start losing, they come down like a pack of wolves, complain about a call? Baby. Lost the Finals? Choker. Wins the league next year? Is LeBron the G.O.A.T?. Howard was getting all the 'he's a baby' chat when he was looking to get traded, poor form sustained it, and now he's at Houston? Nowhere near as much.

I liken James to Cristiano Ronaldo in that regard. Both some of the finest players to grace their sports, but have had to take years of flak for supposed faults, yet are actually some of the hardest workers and competitors in the game. Both have matured, something I'd say Howard hasn't done yet.

Was the decision a mistake? Yeah, and he admits it now, but he said he doesn't regret leaving. I don't think it was 'classless', although I do think it wasn't the right way to go about it. Also, how much was it down to him, and how much was it down to his own management?

#15 kirant

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
Did management ever reach out and try to gauge the situation? Nobody's going to tell the truth.

So on this point, we're at an impasse. It's pretty much impossible for you to create a supported point there and it's impossible for me to rebuke a claim.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
The opportunity and time frame for loss is the contract, when he can walk if he wants. I place blame on the management again, they should have had a contingency or 20 when the league's biggest player is entering FA at the end of the season, and half the teams are clearing cap to try and get him. People were talking about Lebron/Wade/Bosh teaming up in some way or form in that FA for a long time (Olympics 08). Rumours about Paul and LeBron as well. It was hardly out of the blue that he might leave.

I have very little information to go on in terms of a collusion by players to want to play together in the NBA. I can't really speak to that.

Generally though, the contingency is "lock him up long term".

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
It wasn't a style thing for the most part, it's that the players were literally not good enough.  I'm not saying they wrecked his development, but they wreck his chance for success in terms of winning titles. He had to carry his team offensively for basically every game, including playoffs, and even then, he dragged other players into something better (Mo Williams got an All-Star game how?). But it was apparent that he needed at least one other player who was a star.

Can you say Iginla? Seriously, there's so much of what you say about James that compares that example. Iginla carried the team. In a league where scoring 30 goals is typical for a top flight player and 50 is the watermark for "elite", Iginla hit 50 twice on a team with cobbled together parts and UFA rejects.

If it weren't for him and an elite goaltender, the team would be enjoying (likely) it's 20th straight year without playoffs.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
I agree, but contract year destroys value in a similar way. A team knows the other side could end up losing the player for nothing, and thus lowball offers start to arrive.

Contract year is part of it because of flight risk, yes. That's why contingencies in many leagues are made based on whether or not the player re-signs.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
Howard, at Orlando was a legitimate superstar centre. However, he wanted out (for championships, citing lack of roster effort),

Comments like that always scare me about a player's attitude.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
and forced a trade to LA (after accepting his extension with the Magic). The Lakers knew he had the one season and then FA would come when they were making this trade. Season plays out, he struggles to settle, Lakers brass aren't massively helpful, he starts to complain again. Plays better second half of the season, leaves money on the table to join Houston and Harden, Lakers shocked that somebody said no to them, and sticking them in the flux of this year.

Question: How can you just leave money on the table? Buyout clause or can players just randomly walk away from contracts? (outside retiring that is).

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
Harden was part of a trio of stars on OKC (amazing chemistry, just missed out in finals), Harden would be a free agent next year, and it'd probably push the OKC over luxury. Instead of playing out the season and trying to win it all, OKC basically jettisoned Harden to Houston (who promptly signed an extension) for Kevin Martin (a downgrade). OKC then proceeded to lose to the trio of Spurs. OKC had tried to lowball Harden, but he rejected it.

It really sounds like they had no handshake agreement in place there. No "well, once it's legal, we'll sign you to [x]" in place yet. Not sure how this fits in.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
The importance of a superstar/multiple stars is key in basketball because it tends to be what pushes a team over, I agree, but nobody wins on their own in basketball anymore.

Never said that. I said that basketball focuses so heavily on the stars because of what you just mentioned.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
One winning team in the last ten years that lacked any clear 'stars' was the Pistons in 2004, and you could argue Sheed and Billups. Lebron, Wade and Bosh took a bit off their contracts to play together and win. No, I don't think you can doubt LeBron's love for the game, and he's one of the best team players in the game right now. He makes his team better as a whole, not just himself.

I get that. Few players play just for money alone.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
I'd argue that the importance of an individual will always exist in team sports. Soccer is probably the best example in one player pushing a team past what it should do.

There is always importance of having certain individuals. However, basketball, for example, puts major emphasis on a select player. Hockey, conversely, actually puts emphasis on a team aspect. I can't think of a single team that's won in the last two decades on the play of a single individual. In fact, the common theme coming up right now is "rolling four lines". Last year's winners, Chicago Blackhawks, won because they play an excellent 4 line game. LA Kings, same deal. Strong team depth, worked together to get everything done, and always played better than they did individually. Boston Bruins was all about grinding down for all 60 minutes. Every man hits hard, hits often. It's all about the collective effort.

Do teams try to increase the depth chart by getting certain individuals? Yeah. But when you have 20 players each eating up less than half the game (12 players for 15 minutes each, 6 players for 20 minutes each), you need to work together...the best skater rarely plays over 30 minutes. And a goaltender, the only person out there all game long, alone can't win the game for you. You need stars and a support crew.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
Really? I'd love to see what he was being asked there, probably questions about him, not the team. In his MVP speech, he said the only reason he was there was because of the team. Is 'All I care about is the team's success' a sign of selfishness, really?

James speech includes some basic "boiler plate" information typically stated by athletes about the other team. Then it's "I, I, I". Questions about him or not...he can easily convert those into "we". Like "We worked together as a team to put the doubts to rest". Hell, he talked longer about the Spurs than he did about his team repeating. Or his team period.


By contrast, Jonathan Toews deflected quite a few questions about himself into his team, even using terms like "help our team out" to describe his play. I don't think this is the video they're talking about, but you can see how he's turning questions into team oriented answers.


A great story I heard once was about an excellent player named Lanny Mcdonald. He scored the game winning goal for the Stanley Cup, was an aging veteran, and got his one victory finally (which basically capped off his bucket list as a player...he hit every major milestone). The question he was asked was, point blank, "Are you going to retire?". His response? "Today's not the right time. Today is about the team.".

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
I won't argue that being a GM is tough, but my issue is more that they receive far less flack than the players, arguably for messing up planning more. In soccer, the clubs get a lot at the managers, never really the director of football (unless it gets seriously bad), but at least the higher ups are (on the whole) propping the teams up on massive losses. NBA players take a massive amount, when they've been screwed over by the owners in the CBA, and the fans won't even think to blame a GM for messing up (though this is starting). The decision, and Dwightmare did a bit for that: if you can't help your star out, another team will happily do that for you.

I think I'd disagree on that. I see a lot more vitriol thrown at the GM for screwing up a team or not signing a player (at least, for the GMs I see) than I do for players jumping ship. Only in odd cases does that happen in reverse.

There was a Russian player, Ilya Kovalchuk, not too long ago. He signed for league maximum dollars for 3 years, then agreed to tail off the amount of money he was paid so his team, the New Jersey Devils, could manage his salary. After those three years, he retired and left to play in Russia. That got a lot of people mad at him. Similarly, people weren't upset at the GM when prospect Tim Erixon refused to sign with one team and basically leveraged his quality as a prospect (in the NHL, if you don't get signed as a drafted prospect, you can return to the entry draft) to force him to be traded to his team.

However, failure to re-sign popular players are almost squarely put on GMs unless the player has extenuating circumstances.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
But trying to get good lottery picks is the way back up again for teams. The lottery itself is counter-intuitive because it promotes bad play. In Europe, you get relegated, you might never make it back up. You might even go down again. You have to improve, or you're gone.

Lottery is a poor idea if the bottom teams are heavily weighted to win. If you're just suck to go up 1 or 2% in the odds, that's just asinine. But if you're sucking to go up 20-25% chances of getting the all-star 1st overall pick, then there's a flaw in the system.

Lottery encompassing all teams that don't make the playoffs aren't a bad idea, since any team can win. As long as the bottom 10% or so aren't weighted so heavily to win that teams are clamouring for that spot.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
Those stopped very quickly once he won a ring, and then the opposite occurred. The media will chat shit about anyone if they get a good enough opportunity, once you start losing, they come down like a pack of wolves, complain about a call? Baby. Lost the Finals? Choker. Wins the league next year? Is LeBron the G.O.A.T?. Howard was getting all the 'he's a baby' chat when he was looking to get traded, poor form sustained it, and now he's at Houston? Nowhere near as much.

I'm not sure I've heard much this year. I really don't listen too much.

I do remember a situation where his team refused to shake hands after a game though. That is pretty much a jerk move. Don't remember when it happened or the circumstances around it, but doing so is a sports taboo that's pretty high up there.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 14 2013, 10:03 PM)
I don't think it was 'classless', although I do think it wasn't the right way to go about it. Also, how much was it down to him, and how much was it down to his own management?

I think that depends on what happened behind closed doors and if he did some things I didn't hear about.

It's certainly classless to do so without exhausting other options first when you're that integral to a team and it's future. If he asked management to get him out of there ASAP and they told him "like you'd really do it", then he went publicly and asked for a trade since management wouldn't do anything about it...then yeah, he did all he could and UFA is his last option. But if he didn't ask or if he didn't come public after they'd deny him a quiet trade, then there are some problems. Same goes if he just told his agent to stop answering while the GM is on the other line going "Hey there. We need an answer quick."

I don't know the order of the events of these in basketball either:
- Re-opening trade after the deadline
- UFA opening

I've seen many players will get traded with a small gap (days) between the opening of trade and UFA kicking off. And if he had that time, the team could have traded him.

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#16 bblues

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:41 AM

QUOTE
Generally though, the contingency is "lock him up long term". 

The problem is that they never planned for him wanting to opt out and leave. When that's a real possibility, you need to look at it. Sadly, I think they were in denial over that. So many teams are. If you can't get an answer out of him to sign an extension/commit in FA, you have to look at the reality of him going.

QUOTE
Can you say Iginla?  Seriously, there's so much of what you say about James that compares that example.  Iginla carried the team.  In a league where scoring 30 goals is typical for a top flight player and 50 is the watermark for "elite", Iginla hit 50 twice on a team with cobbled together parts and UFA rejects.


You probably can in that regard.

QUOTE
Contract year is part of it because of flight risk, yes.  That's why contingencies in many leagues are made based on whether or not the player re-signs. 


Something the Cavs had failed to plan for, really.

QUOTE
Question: How can you just leave money on the table?  Buyout clause or can players just randomly walk away from contracts? (outside retiring that is).


Because the Lakers were able to offer him more years, and more money per year. Howard was an UFA this point, and the Lakers made the mistake in thinking that would do.

QUOTE
It really sounds like they had no handshake agreement in place there.  No "well, once it's legal, we'll sign you to [x]" in place yet.


They did, Harden's extension was an example of a pre-trade agreement. Houston didn't make the trade until he'd agree to sign it and not bolt that Summer.

QUOTE
But when you have 20 players each eating up less than half the game (12 players for 15 minutes each, 6 players for 20 minutes each), you need to work together...the best skater rarely plays over 30 minutes.  And a goaltender, the only person out there all game long, alone can't win the game for you.  You need stars and a support crew.


Again, issues with comparing sports. In the playoffs/finals most of these guys, allowing for fouls, are playing around 40m+ in their prime. In a game of 48m, that's a massive amount.

QUOTE
James speech includes some basic "boiler plate" information typically stated by athletes about the other team.  Then it's "I, I, I".  Questions about him or not...he can easily convert those into "we".  Like "We worked together as a team to put the doubts to rest".  Hell, he talked longer about the Spurs than he did about his team repeating.  Or his team period. 


That's a testament to the other team there in crediting them, I don't mind that, especially in regards to LeBron getting swept by an almost similar 2007 Spurs. To be honest, he is being asked about himself, and yeah, you could argue that in the second part he might've been able to deflect it to his team a little. But he is getting personal questions, and most people would answer about themselves. The press conference afterwards has him going on about how he values the team, and all the personal awards are nothing without it. He's all about the team, even if it maybe doesn't come up in every interview or public appearance. Furthermore, there's always the issue in taking the quotes from one interview and judging someone on it.

QUOTE
By contrast, Jonathan Toews deflected quite a few questions about himself into his team, even using terms like "help our team out" to describe his play.  I don't think this is the video they're talking about, but you can see how he's turning questions into team oriented answers.


Yeah, he is talking about the team a lot. I'd say that this sort of interview is much more along the lines of what you get in Soccer. Maybe it is just an issue in basketball by fault of players carrying such importance on individuals in a team sport. Look at players like Iverson.

QUOTE
I think I'd disagree on that.  I see a lot more vitriol thrown at the GM for screwing up a team or not signing a player (at least, for the GMs I see) than I do for players jumping ship.  Only in odd cases does that happen in reverse.


Probably varies around the sports.

QUOTE
Lottery is a poor idea if the bottom teams are heavily weighted to win.  If you're just suck to go up 1 or 2% in the odds, that's just asinine.  But if you're sucking to go up 20-25% chances of getting the all-star 1st overall pick, then there's a flaw in the system.

Lottery encompassing all teams that don't make the playoffs aren't a bad idea, since any team can win.  As long as the bottom 10% or so aren't weighted so heavily to win that teams are clamouring for that spot. 


Thing is though, teams will strip their roster to even get a small chance. The 'worst' position in the league? It's being a perennial first round exit team.

QUOTE
I do remember a situation where his team refused to shake hands after a game though.  That is pretty much a jerk move.  Don't remember when it happened or the circumstances around it, but doing so is a sports taboo that's pretty high up there. 


That was the year before the decision. He basically walked off in anger from losing, more at himself than anything. Poor sportsmanship? Maybe nowadays.

QUOTE
I think that depends on what happened behind closed doors and if he did some things I didn't hear about.

It's certainly classless to do so without exhausting other options first when you're that integral to a team and it's future. 


Who knows. I don't mean it dismissively, but we'll never know a clear truth on how any of it went about.

QUOTE
If he asked management to get him out of there ASAP and they told him "like you'd really do it", then he went publicly and asked for a trade since management wouldn't do anything about it...then yeah, he did all he could and UFA is his last option.  But if he didn't ask or if he didn't come public after they'd deny him a quiet trade, then there are some problems.  Same goes if he just told his agent to stop answering while the GM is on the other line going "Hey there.  We need an answer quick."


I don't see it as a problem with him staying private about leaving in the first option. For the last one, if that happened, it'd be a pretty clear indicator. The middle one, there's no quiet trade with a superstar these days, and I still think the GM is at fault as opposed to the player.

QUOTE
I've seen many players will get traded with a small gap (days) between the opening of trade and UFA kicking off.  And if he had that time, the team could have traded him.


Sign and trades have happened, but it really does depend on the player wanting to go to said team, finding said team and both teams to the trade agreeing. Most of the time, it's just for a better contract in regards to the player. But Miami had no assets that would've made it sensible, and LeBron wouldn't have agreed to a S&T if he was going to another team.



I think we've got very different ideas on what constitutes sportsmanship, 'class', player-management responsibility , and the like. I don't really think either one of us is right or wrong either in that regard.

#17 kirant

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:28 AM

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
The problem is that they never planned for him wanting to opt out and leave.

Many GMs don't. Most teams and key players have an "honour" styled agreement that they'll work together if they need to separate.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
Because the Lakers were able to offer him more years, and more money per year. Howard was an UFA this point, and the Lakers made the mistake in thinking that would do.

So basically, they agreed beforehand, never inked a deal, and Howard walked off?

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
Again, issues with comparing sports. In the playoffs/finals most of these guys, allowing for fouls, are playing around 40m+ in their prime. In a game of 48m, that's a massive amount.

Fair enough. And I think that itself feeds the culture. Because a sport like hockey is so team oriented, players are geared and trained from the age of 6 to 8 to think of playing as a cohesive unit and as a team. By comparison, I think basketball encourages the player to think more individually as their skill is much more game breaking and that in order to win, they'll need to carry a team themselves.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
That's a testament to the other team there in crediting them, I don't mind that, especially in regards to LeBron getting swept by an almost similar 2007 Spurs.

I actually am fine with them, but I was just pointing out that they were standard statements, so there's very little to read into with those comments.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
But he is getting personal questions, and most people would answer about themselves. The press conference afterwards has him going on about how he values the team, and all the personal awards are nothing without it. He's all about the team, even if it maybe doesn't come up in every interview or public appearance. Furthermore, there's always the issue in taking the quotes from one interview and judging someone on it.

I would be curious if you have a link to that. I'd be interested in hearing it.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
Thing is though, teams will strip their roster to even get a small chance. The 'worst' position in the league? It's being a perennial first round exit team.

Some teams do, but it doesn't actually amount to anything. The NHL has adjusted it and teams which crater their teams fully actually have struggled. The Edmonton Oilers won 3 first overall picks in a row (unprecedented) and can't get anywhere.

The best teams have been ones with a proper development program and just take a few years to get good, but not top, picks.

Agreed that worst position is the "barely make the playoffs, get beat by a top tier team".

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
That was the year before the decision. He basically walked off in anger from losing, more at himself than anything. Poor sportsmanship? Maybe nowadays.

Google indicates the time I was thinking of was March this year. And then it was repeated in May.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
I don't see it as a problem with him staying private about leaving in the first option.

Fundamentally, it's because you screw the team and by extension, the fans, which put you into the position of being a quality player.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
For the last one, if that happened, it'd be a pretty clear indicator.

Nobody likes the "nuclear" option.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
The middle one, there's no quiet trade with a superstar these days, and I still think the GM is at fault as opposed to the player.

You can get quite a bit done quietly. The Flames managed to trade a (at the time) considered #1 defenceman in Dion Phaneuf so quickly that the other GMs actually publicly complained about the trade. They argued they would have parted with way more (though this could just be all hot air) if they even knew he was available.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 15 2013, 04:41 AM)
I think we've got very different ideas on what constitutes sportsmanship, 'class', player-management responsibility , and the like. I don't really think either one of us is right or wrong either in that regard.

I don't think there is such thing as a "right" answer for such a topic. It's like asking what is a good leader: there are subjectivity and biases that make it impossible to come up with a purely universal answer.

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#18 bblues

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:44 PM

QUOTE (kirant @ Dec 19 2013, 04:28 AM)
Many GMs don't.  Most teams and key players have an "honour" styled agreement that they'll work together if they need to separate.


First I've heard about it.

Soccer is either 1) Management wants a guy gone, no buyers/player won't leave, or 2) Player wants to leave, management won't sell.

QUOTE
So basically, they agreed beforehand, never inked a deal, and Howard walked off?


No, they never agreed to anything. When UFA came, Lakers/Rockets/Mavs (I think it was the Mavs) offered him 'Max' deals, but the Lakers could offer a better max. The same situation as LeBron. Everyone slated LA for not trading him prior to the deadline and letting him walk.

QUOTE
I would be curious if you have a link to that.  I'd be interested in hearing it.


Link Think it's around the 27:20 mark on for a bit. Just realised it's the regular season MVP actually. Link for the Finals MVP, has a fair bit talking about the team as a whole.

QUOTE
Some teams do, but it doesn't actually amount to anything.  The NHL has adjusted it and teams which crater their teams fully actually have struggled.  The Edmonton Oilers won 3 first overall picks in a row (unprecedented) and can't get anywhere.


I agree, most NBA teams don't either (see: Cleveland now).

QUOTE
The best teams have been ones with a proper development program and just take a few years to get good, but not top, picks.


Again, agreed.

QUOTE
Google indicates the time I was thinking of was March this year.  And then it was repeated in May.


I see one in a Bulls match, via google. I assume the other might be a Pacers game. Fair enough. Probably cements my LeBron - Ronaldo idea.

On an aside, I don't mind it at times, depending on the why.

QUOTE
Fundamentally, it's because you screw the team and by extension, the fans, which put you into the position of being a quality player.

Personally, I feel the only time you screw a team is when you just quit giving 100% on the field/court/rink/whatever while you're under contract. That's it. As a fan, I expect nothing more.

QUOTE
Nobody likes the "nuclear" option.

That option has to be taken though.

QUOTE
You can get quite a bit done quietly.  The Flames managed to trade a (at the time) considered #1 defenceman in Dion Phaneuf so quickly that the other GMs actually publicly complained about the trade.  They argued they would have parted with way more (though this could just be all hot air) if they even knew he was available.


Harden deal went like that, but he wasn't a true 'superstar' at the time.

QUOTE
I don't think there is such thing as a "right" answer for such a topic.  It's like asking what is a good leader: there are subjectivity and biases that make it impossible to come up with a purely universal answer.


I agree, most things have no decisive answer. The joy of sports, indeed.

#19 kirant

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 06:00 AM

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 20 2013, 10:44 AM)
First I've heard about it.

Soccer is either 1) Management wants a guy gone, no buyers/player won't leave, or 2) Player wants to leave, management won't sell.

Quite often the way I've seen it done is:
1) If management doesn't want the player and other teams are willing to offer, they'll try to get him to a team he wants to be with. Though he is a low quality player (in all honesty, I can't tell when he plays that he's actually on the roster), T.J. Galiardi was given the question by the San Jose Sharks to determine, if they could accommodate him a preferred team. He was given the ability to decide where he went and was traded to his hometown team. Of course, this doesn't always hold when one offer is way higher quality than another.
2) If management doesn't want the player and the player holds no market value, they are sent to free agency.
3) If management want the player and the player wants to stay, they'll try to reach an agreement. If negotiations break down, it turns to 1) or 2).
4) If management wants the player and the player doesn't want to stay but isn't hurting the locker room environment (like a freelance player on an underperforming team), they'll keep him until he his free agency or they can find good value for him.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 20 2013, 10:44 AM)
No, they never agreed to anything. When UFA came, Lakers/Rockets/Mavs (I think it was the Mavs) offered him 'Max' deals, but the Lakers could offer a better max. The same situation as LeBron. Everyone slated LA for not trading him prior to the deadline and letting him walk.

Unsure of how this is relevant then (or maybe I lost track of this line of thought). We were talking about handshake agreements, weren't we? If Howard had agreed informally to an extension, but reneged when he was struggling, then it might make sense in context.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 20 2013, 10:44 AM)
Link Think it's around the 27:20 mark on for a bit. Just realised it's the regular season MVP actually. Link for the Finals MVP, has a fair bit talking about the team as a whole.

First one: I started ~21:20. Here are my notes as I was listening:
- 22:02. So far it's been talk about himself. He tries hard and is rewarded. No faulting him for that...that's a fairly common line for most players, though "being rewarded" is not how I often hear it. It's often that they're honoured to take it. Subtle different there and can have certain inferences in priority, but probably not enough to make a major point on
- 24:05. That's a nice story. Kind of skipped ahead a little after here.
- Somewhere around 26:40. I honestly wonder if he's going to think everyone. I'm kind of surprised his team is actually so far down the list.
- One thing I notice here (I paused at 28:12) is that he's not really talking about the game at a team level (which it may be because basketball just fundamentally isn't as much as other sports), but he's talking about how he got the award because of them, not that the team and their accomplishments are more important than the award.

I do find that prepared speeches like this are pretty stale for most athletes though. I pulled up a couple (Zdeno Chara and Jarome Iginla) speeches for stellar accomplishments (top defenceman and most showing of leadership qualities, respectively). The format is pretty standard and every athlete seems to follow the same pattern in who they thank in prepared speeches:
(Chara)
(Iginla)

Hell, even Pavel Dasyuk, who is pretty laconic at times, goes through basically the same bases:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_NjXWSDrwk

Really, this feels it was much more of the same of what I typically see and it's really rare to see any player deviate from a formula that doesn't shoot them in the foot.

For the second one, I'm not sure if there are specific points you'd like to make. By question:
- Yes, he seems to talk about the team a bit when talking about repeating
- The next question is pretty much about him, but he seems to focus a lot of how he did it, not how his coach pushed him or how his team put him in spots to take advantage of his quality 3 point shot.
- Next question, it seems for a question about the team (3 final trips, 2 championships), he talks a lot about himself. Most answers (and this might be a sport based difference) would often go into "we have a great group, great time and we're happy we got this done.". His reference to the team seems to be one more about that this HAD to be their year because of what might happen next season.
- The question about his progression is a good answer.
- The question about his point count seems to be something that could be deflected to a team.
- The next question (about shutting down a player) was team oriented. The answer better damn well be about the team. Luckily it was.

Stopped here for time constraint reasons, but I think the short answer is that he's a mixed bag for answers.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 20 2013, 10:44 AM)
I see one in a Bulls match, via google. I assume the other might be a Pacers game. Fair enough. Probably cements my LeBron - Ronaldo idea.

On an aside, I don't mind it at times, depending on the why.

I can't see the "why". I had talked about Trevor Linden, a fairly good player and fan favourite player for the Vancouver Canucks, and the amazing move by the Calgary Flames (orchestrated by Iginla) to congratulate him on his career. Keep in mind that these two teams are rivals. As in, hard cast rivals.

As the colour man (Craig Simpson) so eloquently states, sports (well, he directs it to hockey) is not only about intensity and passion, but there's also respect. Some pretty disgusting things happen IMO when that last part is lost. And not shaking hands is a pretty clear indication of loss of respect.

For reference, the key part starts around 4 minutes in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6YS7VAs7Iw

Interestingly, despite being told he was the best player in the game, in a post-game interview, Iginla brushes off the question about what Linden told him (basically with "Ah, that's private stuff. What's important is that we have a lot of respect for Linden. He plays hard, tries hard, and we wanted to show him that").

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 20 2013, 10:44 AM)
Personally, I feel the only time you screw a team is when you just quit giving 100% on the field/court/rink/whatever while you're under contract. That's it. As a fan, I expect nothing more.

If they're a key player, as in part of the franchise identity (the oft called "franchise player"), I personally expect them to act on behalf of the team. I think LeBron James, as a generational talent and probably the centre aspect of their team, represents that as well.

QUOTE (bblues @ Dec 20 2013, 10:44 AM)
That option has to be taken though.

I don't disagree. But it's the option you want to take when all others are exhausted. Roosevelt had a great quote once..."The unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it can be avoided; but never hit softly.". I think hitting UFA and leaving the team high and dry is something you should avoid if at all possible to provide the team options to recoup, but if it happens, don't be afraid to.

I think the crucial missing step, if he took all the proper steps I think to reflect that he's a class player in my book, is that he didn't publicly ask for a trade and let the world know he's wanting out and that management is being crazy by not moving him when he clearly doesn't want to be a Cavalier next year, but the owners aren't providing him that option.

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