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#21 Sothe

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 10:32 PM

Christian. There's nothing more to say here.
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#22 Zepher Tensho

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:49 PM

I was Christian as a child but now I'm pagan (no not Wiccan although the two are very similar. And no not a devil worshiper)
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#23 Leo

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 08:17 PM

QUOTE (A1C Grey Peterson @ April 17, 2009 07:49 pm)
I was Christian as a child but now I'm pagan (no not Wiccan although the two are very similar. And no not a devil worshiper)

Not particularly specific.
Webster's Dictionary defines pagan as "someone not involved in any organised religion". My athiest friend calls herself a pagan.

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#24 Tino

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 04:11 PM

This pertains to the existence of God, and with that any omniscient, omnipotent or morally perfect being.



There is no such thing as a god, and I'm of the opinion that it's highly reasonable to believe so and with that argue the truth of that statement.



First, let's get our terminology straight. A god is a being that is morally perfect, omnipotent, and omniscient. It's very reasonable not to belief in the existence of such a being.



There is no evidence of the existence of God. What this means is that it's reasonable to argue that God is non-existent. Arguments that could be used to counter this statement such as the existence of fairies and similar fantasy creatures not having been proved to be non-existent are invalid though, since if you were asked whether you were agnostic, I'd say you'd answer with "no". You wouldn't believe in the existence of fairies, which illustrates the principle in regard to the existence of God that the person who's arguing in support of God's existence should come with the proof that God as a matter of fact does exist. If there's no positive support for it, which there isn't, the other side, those who support the non-existence of God, wins.



The second argument I'm going to use is the fact that God remains hidden continuously, which yields two claims. The first being that if God in fact does exist, then that's an important fact. The second being that if God in fact does exist, his existence is not as evident as it could be. So even if God exists, he's hiding himself, for whatever reason and to whatever extent.

I won't go over the first claim since most people will grant that if God exists, that's important information. The second claim however, might require some more coverage. I've done some research among a good amount of people who go to church some time ago for a project I had to do for school, and I found out that even those who do believe in God and his existence, do grant that his existence is by no means obvious since if it were, people wouldn't be arguing about his existence more or less than they would argue the existence of mankind itself.

Though, while granting this, most people who believe in God do seem to generally respond that this is by no means a surprise, since God is immaterial; he is just mind, not body. That's completely beside the point, though. The claim wasn't that the existence of God could be as evident as that of the existen of mankind or other physical objects and other things, it was that the existence of God could be more evident that it currently is, and the latter claim be be given strong support, since it's easy to imagine things that could occur, and which, if they would occur, would be ample to convince any rational individual of God's existence.

Let me restate my argument: It's generally agreed that if God exists, that's an important piece of information. The world could be so that God's existence would be more evident than it currently is. That would mean that if God exists, he is hiding his reality from mankind, and thus is depriving mankind of knowledge of an important piece of information.

Why is this a fact? An answer that's given often is that it's crucual for there to be epistemic distance between God and mankind. This is not a good answer, though, since if it would be a valid answer, God hiding himself is highly puzzling. On the other hand, if God is non-existent, there is no problem why his existence isn't as evident as it could possibly be.



A final argument I'm going to use pertains to evil. It's the argument that's used most often against God's existence, and is also most easily appreciated by nearly everybody who didn't study either philosophy or religion, or both. As you probable know, this argument is centered around the fact that the world contains states of affairs that are undersirable, and the question that we ask when we consider that is: How does the existence of such states of affairs square with God's existence?

Logically, it's impossible for there to exist both evil and God at the same time. If God exists, he wants to get rid of evil since he's morally perfect. Due to him being omniscient, he'll know about any existing evil, and being omnipotent, he has the power to eliminate evil. So if God exists, there can't be evil. But considering how evil does exist, God can't exist.

There are however, no matter how striking this argument is, many objections to it. Therefore, let's restate the argument: Due to some evil existing in the world, it's highly unreasonable that God exists.

This restated argument can be put as follows:

There are changes in this world that can be made, and changes were made in the past. Isn't it true that it is very reasonable to believe God would've made the world a better place to live? Isn't it incredibly reasonable to believe that the world would be much better of were it true that a cure for cancer or aids or even mental illnesses were found? Isn't it reasonable to believe the world would've been better off if cures were found for life-threatening illnesses earlier than they actually were found. Isn't it reasonable that the world would've been much better off if WWII wouldn't have taken place?



Conclusion: there's no such thing as God, or whatever omniscient, omnipotent, morally perfect being.

#25 Leo

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 06:26 PM

A very well-argued and presented post, however only your first arguement is particulary compelling. The second and third can rather easily be dismissed or ignored.

Good work though, I'd like to see Wraith's answer to this.

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#26 Tino

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 06:28 PM

QUOTE
The second and third can rather easily be dismissed or ignored.


I'd be glad to counter any counter-arguments against the points I made.

#27 Leo

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 08:18 PM

QUOTE (Tino @ April 19, 2009 06:28 pm)
QUOTE
The second and third can rather easily be dismissed or ignored.


I'd be glad to counter any counter-arguments against the points I made.

The third point has major flaws.
Basically it says that because there is evil, there is no god. Yet you also call god "morally perfect" being. The percieved evil in the world come from our own morals, but humans are not morally perfect, therefore our perception of good and evil are flawed.
A morally perfect being therefore has a different perception of good and evil. The existence of what we see as evil as no bearing on the existence of this god.

As well as that, many gods are not considered morally perfect, particularly those in polytheistic religions. This arguement is no way relevant to poeple with a differnt concept of a god to yourself.

As for the second arguement, you cannot claim to understand the motives or thought processes of a god. Therefore you cannot say his actions are odd or make no sense. Quite simply, it may want to stay hidden.

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#28 Memento Mori

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 01:48 AM

QUOTE

Basically it says that because there is evil, there is no god. Yet you also call god "morally perfect" being. The percieved evil in the world come from our own morals, but humans are not morally perfect, therefore our perception of good and evil are flawed.

Assuming the term "God" herein defines the deity perceived by the Christian religion as defined in its holy word, the only written account of God's intentions are written by the hands of man, and, the fact that humans are made in God's image inclusive, it can be said God's perception of evil is congruent to that of humans; moreover to the fact, most humans can agree on a common concpet of "moral evil."

The above is really irrelevant logic all the same, though; the commandments God supposedly gave down to his disciple Moses stated Killing was a sin of sorts, and yet killing reigns in his world; thus, if God lets sinning run amok, he is being morally imperfect.

QUOTE

As well as that, many gods are not considered morally perfect, particularly those in polytheistic religions. This arguement is no way relevant to poeple with a differnt concept of a god to yourself.

Polytheistic religions are not even a legal point of argument being that the majority of such idols (usually following the scope of paganism) are essentially humans with bestowed supernatural abilities. Furthermore, all polythestic idols are conditioned depending on the region; the Norse are a perfect such example.

QUOTE

As for the second arguement, you cannot claim to understand the motives or thought processes of a god. Therefore you cannot say his actions are odd or make no sense. Quite simply, it may want to stay hidden.

While this holds some water in the irrelevant world of scepticism, the fact remains this God denies activity where normally, by his supposed definition, he ough to be active in remedying.

The entire concept of the Christian God falls apart at its base for the record; until you can express logic otherwise, this is a very, very slippery slope you're attempting to climb.

#29 Leo

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 06:19 PM

^Nice first post. I like your name.

To clarify a little, I am an atheist, only arguing with Tino 'cause I felt his arguement was weakand I was bored.

QUOTE
Assuming the term "God" herein defines the deity perceived by the Christian religion as defined in its holy word, the only written account of God's intentions are written by the hands of man, and, the fact that humans are made in God's image inclusive, it can be said God's perception of evil is congruent to that of humans; moreover to the fact, most humans can agree on a common concpet of "moral evil."


Tino was not referring to a Christian god, only a nameless "morally perfect being", so this arguement is void.

And no, most humans can not agree on morals. They are entirely subjective, and instilled by a child's upbringing and culture.
The very fact of crime in the world will prove that humans have wildly differing morals.


QUOTE

Polytheistic religions are not even a legal point of argument being that the majority of such idols (usually following the scope of paganism) are essentially humans with bestowed supernatural abilities. Furthermore, all polythestic idols are conditioned depending on the region; the Norse are a perfect such example.


I fail to see how polythesim is any less valid than monothesim.
Besides, Christianity uses a huge amount of "conditioning depending on region": pagan gods made into saints are a prime example




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#30 Tino

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 07:29 PM

QUOTE
Tino was not referring to a Christian god, only a nameless "morally perfect being", so this arguement is void.


Apologies for the lack of actual clarification, but I actually was referring to God.

#31 Zepher Tensho

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:28 PM

QUOTE (Leo @ April 17, 2009 03:17 pm)
QUOTE (A1C Grey Peterson @ April 17, 2009 07:49 pm)
I was Christian as a child but now I'm pagan (no not Wiccan although the two are very similar. And no not a devil worshiper)

Not particularly specific.
Webster's Dictionary defines pagan as "someone not involved in any organised religion". My athiest friend calls herself a pagan.

Webster can fck off. I've participated in several group rituals and spells. That is very organized. And tell your friend athiests are NOT pagan. Athiest have no god or at least don't belive in them but I have gods and goddesses and belive in them all. Not getting mad at you but you can't take a dictionarys word for what a religion encompasses. The person who wrote that definiton is ignorant to be nice about it.
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#32 Hughes

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 01:40 AM

That's kinda like Websters definition of love... makes no sense.

My take on the religion thing is this. God is good, he wants you to be good, and if you can't you're goin' to hell. Short sweet and to the point, without all the complicated jazz. Just be good.

I am a catholic though, so it goes without saying I believe *most* everything catholics say. I say *most* 'cause I don't think Catholicism is as anti-gay as it needs to be, but that's for a different topic....

My friend on the other hand is a sort of Pesdo-satanist, or something like that. He believes God and Satan each had an equal hand in making everything, and people can either submit to the Satanic side, join God, or be tricked into helping satan. It's all pretty solid, except that in 2012 there's supposed to be a huge holy war staged on earth, with angles and demon's thrown in the mix. Don't question me too much on it, though, that's about all I can tell you. (I don't think I even got the name right D: ) but it's a very interesting concept.
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#33 Blood Falcon

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 03:22 AM

I don't believe in the 2012 crap :\ . I don't believe God brings you to heaven because of your religion, but rather whether you were a good person or not.
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#34 Hughes

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 04:09 AM

That's one of the things I disagree with the Catholic church about. They say if they've never been exposed to good christian values, and be good, they can go to heaven, but I'm agreeing with you on this one. I would bet money that many of my atheist friends will live MUCH better lives then many of the other Catholics I know....
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#35 Tino

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 09:36 AM

I agree with Hughes's previous post. In fact, I would like to elaborate a bit more on that standpoint.

Let's assume a person is able to live three lives. In his first life, he's a religious person with various restrictions due to his religion, and therefore can't really life his life to the fullest. In his second life, he's an atheist with no restrictions from religion at all, and therefore can do basically anything he wants as long as he doesn't break the law. If he could choose whether his third life would be similar the his first or second life, I highly doubt he would choose for the first, since he was able to get much more fun and excitement from his second life.

#36 Hughes

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:00 AM

I hate to spam post in the mature section, but Tino couldn't have put it any better. I believe ^ that. Only thing I'd say is it'd be more about living life to the fullest and fulfilling god's purposes than just having fun.

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#37 Destran

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:20 AM

QUOTE
Just be good.

No matter how good you are, speaking in Christian terms, you won't go to heaven unless you accept Christ death and resurrection for your sins.

QUOTE
They say if they've never been exposed to good christian values, and be good, they can go to heaven

I don't recall reading that in the Bible anywhere O_o

QUOTE
Let's assume a person is able to live three lives. In his first life, he's a religious person with various restrictions due to his religion, and therefore can't really life his life to the fullest. In his second life, he's an atheist with no restrictions from religion at all, and therefore can do basically anything he wants as long as he doesn't break the law. If he could choose whether his third life would be similar the his first or second life, I highly doubt he would choose for the first, since he was able to get much more fun and excitement from his second life.

On the contrary, you're jumping to conclusions here.
Religion doesn't mean that you're 'restricted' in a negative manner.

In Christian context, if you have read the Bible completely and understand the material given- all of the information is enriched with wisdom and proper morals. If there really was a true Christian that obeyed everything there, wouldn't he be kinder then the rest of us? Of course, that can't happen, but a religious background can back up positive habits.

From here I'm going to assume you'll start ranting on the Inquisition and the sort of religious flaws.
-It really depends on how one understands the material. One 'Christian' can be a mass murderer who misinterprets the meaning of the Bible as holding another to a gunpoint for confession, while another could be donating money and aiding the poor/weak.

The same applies with pretty much everything else- people can misinterpret societies laws as well.

QUOTE
get much more fun

This brings up the idea of 'guilt.'
When you mention 'fun-' what do you refer to?

The Bible does not restrict the idea of getting together with friends, having a nice time with one another, or being on a computer; what is does condemn is acts of violence or immorality.

Thus, before I myself can jump to a conclusion, you must define what 'fun' is.

EDIT:
I reviewed the topic, and it seems that many people misinterpret religion gravely.

QUOTE
I prayed like....five times a day, but nothing every happened.

People often misinterpret the meaning of prayer.
Prayer doesn't mean:
I pray that God will give me ten thousand dollars from the sky

Prayer is not only for asking something from God, but its also for the Christian/whatever religious group's soul as well. Prayer develops faith and allows one to confess to his/her maker.

QUOTE
I don't go to church

You don't need to go to church to be religious O_o

QUOTE
Was always an atheist, Never baptized, whoot whoot. If there is a god, he did not want to have anything to do with me.

Your point then?

QUOTE
But I find that a really wise saying, after all it's difficult to shake someone of religion (as are drugs) and people who "awaken" from their religion are often resentful of their religious selves and the religion they were a part of (just like druggies go on about how they never were happy with themselves and are so happy to be "cured")

Same can be applied to atheism and the sort.
My grandfather almost died three times due to drinking, yet he still remained an atheist.
After my mom barely survived a car accident, he stopped drinking, and religion straightened out his life.

Perhaps he was 'awakened.'

QUOTE
There is no evidence of the existence of God

So then, if there is no evidence of the existence of God, how exactly did things get a 'moving in the universe.
There is no solid proof of that either.
Once we enter the debate dealing with this, I'll be able to pull out some of my old stuff from FEU >.>

QUOTE
If God exists, he wants to get rid of evil since he's morally perfect.

True, God indeeds wishes to get rid of evil. However, if he does so, he'll have to fix us humans up first to the point in which we won't be able to decide our fates. In other words, since he cares for us, God gave us a choice to either obey or disobey; thus, sin still exists in the world.
However, it can be quickly amended by accepting Christ as your savior in the sense that he died and rose from the grave for your sins wink.gif
Then again, this is talking in Christian terms; I won't be able to provide an argument for a separate religion.

QUOTE
God would've made the world a better place to live?

Once more, if everything began as perfect, and if we merely started as mechanical beings in a sense- we wouldn't be able to chose our fates. In other words, since God cares, he gives us a choice to sin or obey happy.gif

QUOTE
the only written account of God's intentions are written by the hands of man

Which were, in Christianity terms, delivered through God.

QUOTE
and yet killing reigns in his world; thus, if God lets sinning run amok, he is being morally imperfect.

I refer back to my argument on the idea of 'free will'
Would you rather be presented without the option of being able to rebel or obey- or simply take commands without a choice in the first place.
The world is like a 'test' of sorts.

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#38 Hughes

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:41 AM

QUOTE
I don't recall reading that in the Bible anywhere O_o


I'm catholic, and part of that is believing not just what the bible says, but also what's been passed down from generation to generation. That's where protestants come in.

QUOTE
No matter how good you are, speaking in Christian terms, you won't go to heaven unless you accept Christ death and resurrection for your sins.


Hey, who's perfect? I can't say I agree with everything the church says, this being one of the more prominent ways in which I disagree. To answer I say....

QUOTE
I am a catholic though, so it goes without saying I believe *most* everything catholics say.


this, and...

QUOTE
That's one of the things I disagree with the Catholic church about. They say if they've never been exposed to good christian values, and be good, they can go to heaven


this. Been over this part before Desty. XD
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#39 Destran

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:44 AM

QUOTE
I'm catholic, and part of that is believing not just what the bible says, but also what's been passed down from generation to generation. That's where protestants come in.

And I respect your religious views equally.
In the end, we both believe in the root idea of Christ salvation wink.gif


And snap, I regret posting now due to the ratio factor of religious members and atheistic members, but at the very least, Crepe isn't here >.>
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#40 Soviet Comrade

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 03:11 AM

Oh wow, I had no idea there were other Christians besides myself and Wraith on this forum. As for what was posted earlier, about there being no proof of God's existence except for the "Written by Human hands, from the will of God" or something (Prophets).

Absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence. We can't prove it, or disprove it, and faith is what helps us believe. It's hard to explain, maybe someone more knowledgable than myself could explain it? Then again, if we could, there'd probably be less Atheists in the world




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