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FE debate anyone?


15 replies to this topic

#1 Blood Falcon

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 02:41 PM

I've been bored a lot lately, and have felt like having a FE debate. I'd be willing to be FE6-7, and FE9-10.
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Blood Falcon -- Hey bblues, are you able to ban the GoogleBot?
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QUOTE (Grey_Tensho @ March 10, 2010 04:07 pm)
Bloodfalcon is as crazy over copyright as youtube is lol.

#2 Rujio

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:26 PM

I'd be up for one, but I leave for vacation in a week.
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#3 Blood Falcon

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:28 PM

Want to start up opening arguments then finish when you come back? What game do you want to do?
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I won't remove this until I have gotten an overkill extermination in Halo MLG.-started August 13, 2010, 8-13-2010 Got it on December 18, 2010! WOOT!
I won't remove this until I get a killtacular in Halo MLG- Started December 29, 2010.
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Bloodfalcon22-pokemanzz cnt dye
FELover3- If I beat the shit out of them they do

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Rujio -- Cows are more important than anything.
Rujio -- ANYTHING

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Blood Falcon -- Hey bblues, are you able to ban the GoogleBot?
bblues -- I don't think so.
Blood Falcon -- Damn, lol.
bblues -- He's above the law : P

QUOTE (Grey_Tensho @ March 10, 2010 04:07 pm)
Bloodfalcon is as crazy over copyright as youtube is lol.

#4 Rujio

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:51 PM

Hmm, I'm most comfortable with FE10 of those, but I haven't played HM in a long time and I don't think there are any enemy stats for other modes. Also, it's a huge game to debate with a lot of details. I guess FE7, since I've just played LHM and I'm working through HHM right now.
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#5 Blood Falcon

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:53 PM

^What a coincidence, same here. Um, how about LHM, HHM, ranks?

I'm probably picking Geitz, despite type we do.
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I won't remove this until I have gotten an overkill extermination in Halo MLG.-started August 13, 2010, 8-13-2010 Got it on December 18, 2010! WOOT!
I won't remove this until I get a killtacular in Halo MLG- Started December 29, 2010.
QUOTE
Bloodfalcon22-pokemanzz cnt dye
FELover3- If I beat the shit out of them they do

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Rujio -- Cows are more important than anything.
Rujio -- ANYTHING

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Blood Falcon -- Hey bblues, are you able to ban the GoogleBot?
bblues -- I don't think so.
Blood Falcon -- Damn, lol.
bblues -- He's above the law : P

QUOTE (Grey_Tensho @ March 10, 2010 04:07 pm)
Bloodfalcon is as crazy over copyright as youtube is lol.

#6 Rujio

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 12:06 AM

Hmm, how about just HHM contributions (but we could assume that LHM was played) and I would prefer efficiency over ranks, but I would do ranks if you really want to.

Edit: I'm thinking I'd like to use Erk.
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#7 Blood Falcon

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 12:17 AM

If we're talking efficiency, then Erk easily beats Geitz, even in HHM. So I guess I'll switch to Raven?
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I won't remove this until I have gotten an overkill extermination in Halo MLG.-started August 13, 2010, 8-13-2010 Got it on December 18, 2010! WOOT!
I won't remove this until I get a killtacular in Halo MLG- Started December 29, 2010.
QUOTE
Bloodfalcon22-pokemanzz cnt dye
FELover3- If I beat the shit out of them they do

QUOTE
Rujio -- Cows are more important than anything.
Rujio -- ANYTHING

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Blood Falcon -- Hey bblues, are you able to ban the GoogleBot?
bblues -- I don't think so.
Blood Falcon -- Damn, lol.
bblues -- He's above the law : P

QUOTE (Grey_Tensho @ March 10, 2010 04:07 pm)
Bloodfalcon is as crazy over copyright as youtube is lol.

#8 bluspidr

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 12:23 AM

i know im in the minority here but......

NINO FTW!!!
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#9 Rujio

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 12:48 AM

QUOTE (Blood Falcon @ Jul 28 2011, 05:17 PM)
If we're talking efficiency, then Erk easily beats Geitz, even in HHM. So I guess I'll switch to Raven?

Most current FE7 HHM Efficiency tier list:

-Jesus On Wheels-
Marcus

-Top-
Sain
Kent
Raven
Priscilla
Ninian/Nils
Lowen
Matthew

-High-
Serra
Florina
Oswin
Hector
Pent

-Upper Middle-
Hawkeye
Harken
Geitz
Lucius
Erk


Also, Nino is garbage in efficiency runs. It IS debatable between her, Wil, Karla, and Wallace, though.
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#10 Blood Falcon

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 01:11 AM

Weird, I guess I'll pick Geitz then, what format do you want to debate in?

Where'd you get the tierlist? And why the hell is Marcus so high? I would understand FE6 HM, but in FE7 HHM he one-rounds everyone.
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I won't remove this until I have gotten an overkill extermination in Halo MLG.-started August 13, 2010, 8-13-2010 Got it on December 18, 2010! WOOT!
I won't remove this until I get a killtacular in Halo MLG- Started December 29, 2010.
QUOTE
Bloodfalcon22-pokemanzz cnt dye
FELover3- If I beat the shit out of them they do

QUOTE
Rujio -- Cows are more important than anything.
Rujio -- ANYTHING

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Blood Falcon -- Hey bblues, are you able to ban the GoogleBot?
bblues -- I don't think so.
Blood Falcon -- Damn, lol.
bblues -- He's above the law : P

QUOTE (Grey_Tensho @ March 10, 2010 04:07 pm)
Bloodfalcon is as crazy over copyright as youtube is lol.

#11 bluspidr

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 01:26 AM

efficiency? if you focused almost primarily on 11 other characters, even in hard modes, by the time you get Nino they're stats are inflated to the point where its not really that hard at all. while training her up, keeping her alive and getting her a kill a turn is litterally the only think that requires any thought and should only slow you down a very little amount. especially if you give her the afa drops to get the boost in exp gain, she will be even stat wise with your party before she is level wise, with room to grow even more. by then her addition to your efficiency largely outweigh her negetive impact to your efficiency while leveling her up

this is one of the primary reasons im looking forward to my guide being posted on this site. i can't wait to put stuff in the reader feedback and scores portion. i rate Nino 10 out of 10, but i know im in the minority and can't wait to see the feedback about her and others as well
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#12 Blood Falcon

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:33 AM

HHM enemies don't mess around, and by the time you get to Nino, she's a hard unit to raise. Even after you waste an abundant amount of turns, she'll still be falling behind due to her 6 movement. IIRC, you get a bit less EXP in HHM, and all Afa's Drops gives you is some extra boosts in growths, nothing to do with EXP at all.

She's not like Heath where you can baby the unit for two chapters and you'd be fine. It's going to take at least four chapters of babying to get her up to speed with everyone else and by that time, your on chapter 30 with only a couple of chapters left of the game. She doesn't have hard mode bonuses( if she did then she would be much more worthy of training) and doesn't even have a mount. Also by that time, you have Sain/Kent and Heath/other flier with great stats and movement going around, Nino won't be able to keep up.

Nino would be good if you don't care for tactics or efficiency, but really the only good thing she has going for her is her stats, which takes a while for her to reach that point, which is most likely near the end of the game.
3/10.
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I won't remove this until I have gotten an overkill extermination in Halo MLG.-started August 13, 2010, 8-13-2010 Got it on December 18, 2010! WOOT!
I won't remove this until I get a killtacular in Halo MLG- Started December 29, 2010.
QUOTE
Bloodfalcon22-pokemanzz cnt dye
FELover3- If I beat the shit out of them they do

QUOTE
Rujio -- Cows are more important than anything.
Rujio -- ANYTHING

QUOTE
Blood Falcon -- Hey bblues, are you able to ban the GoogleBot?
bblues -- I don't think so.
Blood Falcon -- Damn, lol.
bblues -- He's above the law : P

QUOTE (Grey_Tensho @ March 10, 2010 04:07 pm)
Bloodfalcon is as crazy over copyright as youtube is lol.

#13 Rujio

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:48 AM

QUOTE (bluspidr @ Jul 28 2011, 06:26 PM)
efficiency? if you focused almost primarily on 11 other characters, even in hard modes, by the time you get Nino they're stats are inflated to the point where its not really that hard at all.
That's the thing- your entire party is so good that she is miles below anyone else.

QUOTE

while training her up, keeping her alive and getting her a kill a turn is litterally the only think that requires any thought and should only slow you down a very little amount.

Like we both said, everyone else is WAY better than her, and you've certainly failed to show how she contributes. Your team by this point is likely largely high movement units and guys like Pent who are Nino but way better. You do have to go out of your way and slow down to let her get kills, and you get nothing in return for it. Also, you do have to think- you're trying to beat chapters as quickly as possible. Sure, you can just move people, but you could clear chapters WAY faster.

QUOTE

especially if you give her the afa drops to get the boost in exp gain, she will be even stat wise with your party before she is level wise, with room to grow even more. by then her addition to your efficiency largely outweigh her negetive impact to your efficiency while leveling her up

Afa's Drops don't affect EXP gain, just a slight boost to growths which, after all of her level ups, amounts to one or two extra points in each stat. And what does she add? Let's say she gets to 20/1, which won't happen because it slows us down a ton to do that, and we even give her the Afa's Drops. She has 16 MAG and 21 SPD. Level 13 Pent has 20 MAG and 20 SPD. Except that he got there by speeding us up while she got there by killing our turn count. Oh, and he has A staves. And 3 DEF and 2-3 HP. And more SKL. And more RES. And, at worst, one less LUK.

QUOTE

this is one of the primary reasons im looking forward to my guide being posted on this site. i can't wait to put stuff in the reader feedback and scores portion. i rate Nino 10 out of 10, but i know im in the minority and can't wait to see the feedback about her and others as well

Tell me why Nino is better than Pent. Go on, do it. And I don't just mean say "she's worth it in the end." Explain to me how her contributions are worth the investment. Better yet, show me. Use Nino instead of Pent and beat my turncounts in those chapters. I don't think you understand how much she slows you down if you feed her kills and how little she helps afterwards. Look up dondon151's videos to see how fast efficiency can be. He even does it with everyone's growths set to 0! He DOES rig some things with the RNG, but when everyone has their base stats...

Falcon: ABABAB?
SF. I promise you it's very accurate- those people talk tier lists to death. Marcus, though, does deserve it. Why? BECAUSE he one-rounds everyone. This is efficiency, so we don't really care about EXP. Sain and Kent are as high as they are because people figured out you can make one of them come out of LHM at like 16/1 and be Marcus with long-term use.
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#14 Blood Falcon

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 04:09 AM

Why would you promote such a good unit like Sain or Kent at level 16? Marcus long term is a joke, he becomes bad near chapter 18 in HHM, to the point where he's slowing you down more than he's making you move faster. Sain and Kent have the long term stats to keep you through the game.
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I won't remove this until I have gotten an overkill extermination in Halo MLG.-started August 13, 2010, 8-13-2010 Got it on December 18, 2010! WOOT!
I won't remove this until I get a killtacular in Halo MLG- Started December 29, 2010.
QUOTE
Bloodfalcon22-pokemanzz cnt dye
FELover3- If I beat the shit out of them they do

QUOTE
Rujio -- Cows are more important than anything.
Rujio -- ANYTHING

QUOTE
Blood Falcon -- Hey bblues, are you able to ban the GoogleBot?
bblues -- I don't think so.
Blood Falcon -- Damn, lol.
bblues -- He's above the law : P

QUOTE (Grey_Tensho @ March 10, 2010 04:07 pm)
Bloodfalcon is as crazy over copyright as youtube is lol.

#15 bluspidr

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 05:08 AM

QUOTE (Rujio @ Jul 28 2011, 08:48 PM)

Tell me why Nino is better than Pent. Go on, do it. And I don't just mean say "she's worth it in the end." Explain to me how her contributions are worth the investment. Better yet, show me. Use Nino instead of Pent and beat my turncounts in those chapters. I don't think you understand how much she slows you down if you feed her kills and how little she helps afterwards. Look up dondon151's videos to see how fast efficiency can be. He even does it with everyone's growths set to 0! He DOES rig some things with the RNG, but when everyone has their base stats...


she only slows you down cause she has 1 less movement than the others. all things considered, thats not that much. at 1 kill a turn it really doesnt take long at all for her to get up to speed (lets face it, the 2 chapters you have for that are really not that difficult). by the end of cog of destiny she should be on par stat wise. by victory or death she is so overpowered that she can win the map with just her and a healer following her with a physic on normal modes and on hard modes her and hector cut through the chapter like its nothing. having a unit that overpowered for the final few chapters makes them WAY easier

so yes, she is "worth it in the end" because its not hard to train her in the first place.
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#16 Rujio

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 05:29 AM

QUOTE (Blood Falcon @ Jul 28 2011, 09:09 PM)
Why would you promote such a good unit like Sain or Kent at level 16? Marcus long term is a joke, he becomes bad near chapter 18 in HHM, to the point where he's slowing you down more than he's making you move faster. Sain and Kent have the long term stats to keep you through the game.


Marcus is usable (not good, usable) through the entire game. I think you're thinking of FE6 Marcus who is only very good for about eight chapters.

Four levels does NOT make much of a difference, and if you can have them there from the moment they show up in HHM...

Also, in order to have people with similar combat parameters to Marcus by the ninth chapter of HHM you have to have, say, Lowen at 20/1. In eight chapters? I don't think so. Further, Marcus has 16 STR and 12 SPD. He's doubling by far most of the enemies in 17x (chapter 18 enemy stats seem to be missing)- missing a few pirates and an archer- and of course Fargus. It takes 24 ATK to 2HKO the toughest pirates. Even if he's STR screwed, he gets EVERY enemy (except Fargus) with a Steel Sword. Of course, I don't see why Marcus couldn't be a higher level.

Raven needs four levels to do the same thing, if I'm calculating HHM bonuses correctly. But then Hector need TEN to 2HKO, and even then he may double just about nothing. That 16/1 Kent I brought up just barely misses the toughest ones even if he got the LHM energy ring. That said, he may have gotten another point of STR by now. Sain is doing the same thing as Marcus. Lowen needs to be 20/6. Eliwood needs to be promoted. Lyn needs to be promoted and then some. Florina is borderline on the necessary strength once she promotes, but of course she doesn't have the weapon rank, IIRC.

So only two of our units can realistically match up to Marcus's combat and only one of them can match his huge versatility and movement. Being tied for best unit (or MAYBE being ever so slightly behind and only taking second, which is arguable because Marcus has better durability) is so bad. I would much rather use my horde of not-1RKOing not-8 MOV units over him.

Now, let's look at chapter 21. The toughest non-boss in this chapter possible would be an 11 DEF 31 HP 10 AS Wyvern Rider. A level 11 Marcus borderline ORKOs with an Iron Axe. Mind you, the lowest end of this spectrum can be ORKOd by him with an Iron Axe with nothing but a single SPD point over his bases. An unlucky Marcus here is 8HKOd. Let's see what level Hector would need to be...

The required 14 AS is achieved via promoting. Oops. Well, I guess he can jump up to a Steel Axe for the 12 MT (with WTA) since he won't be doubling. So, he needs 15 STR to 2HKO. Hey, that's at level 14. Funnily enough, it's also Marcus's base STR.

Shall I go on?

Edit: Yes, level 11 is inflated for Marcus, but the point was more that he can do more than Hector later than you said he was contributing negatively, and that even at base level after that time he's still basically Hector on a horse.
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QUOTE
Bobryk -- holy crap I look away for two seconds and I have knots all up in my shit



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