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FE:7 HNM Rujio (Kent) vs. Bloodfalcon (Sain)


2 replies to this topic

#1 Rujio

Rujio

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 05:35 PM

I'll start with Lyn Mode.
Kent Iron Sword Lvl 1/0
HP 20
ATK 11
HIT 103
AVO 16
DEF 5
RES 1
CRIT 3
DODGE 2
AS 7
Sain Iron Lance Lvl 1/0
HP 19
ATK 15
HIT 90
AVO 16
DEF 6
RES 0
CRIT 2
DODGE 4
AS 6

Now, looking at these, it appears that Sain>Kent, right? Wrong. With the weapon triangle and forest effects, it becomes this:
Kent Iron Sword Lvl 1/0
HP 20
ATK 11+1(-1) 12(11)
HIT 103+15(-20) 118(98)
AVO 16+15(+20) 31(51)
DEF 5+1(+1) 6(7)
RES 1(+1) 1(2)
CRIT 3
DODGE 2
AS 7
Sain Iron Lance Lvl 1/0
HP 19
ATK 15-1(-1) 14(13)
HIT 90-15(-20) 75(55)
AVO 16-15(+20) 1(21)
DEF 6-1(+1) 5(6)
RES 0(+1) 0(1)
CRIT 2
DODGE 4
AS 6

Now, if both are attacking under equal conditions, Kent has +1 HP, -2 ATK, +43 HIT, +30 AVO, and +1 DEF. Kent is winning clearly in durability with his better HP and defense along with having a vulnerary when he joins, as well as +30 avo, and is hitting far more often, (If the enemy's in a forest, Sain has <50% hit)and thus wins offense as well.

The gap is only closed when you fight Glass in Chaper 2 and a few mercs in Chapter 3, when BOTH have WTA. Sain keeps his offense lead, might gain a miniscule durabilty lead, while stil getting hit more and missing more. And besides that, after two level ups, there's ~20% chance of Kent being able to double Glass, which, while unlikely, it's possible, while for Sain to double Glass, he needs three levels all with speed. That's a 6.4% chance. And of course, this is assuming it's possible to get 300 EXP before battling Glass, and that you actually manage to get Sain that EXP with those lovely stats he gets thanks to WTD. So for all of chapter 2, Kent can still destroy Sain. In chapter 3, it's a similar case, although Sain has a few mercs that he can fight as well as an archer. And, finally, 3/4 of the way through the chapter, he gets an Iron Sword for a few kills. So, for 2 3/4 chapters, he's doing next to nothing offensively, and not doing well at all defensively.

Kent can get more kills do to WTA, so at this point they'd be about here.
Kent 4
HP 22-23
STR 7
SKL 7-8
SPD 8
LUK 3
DEF 6
RES 2
Sain 3
HP 20-21
STR 9
SKL 5
SPD 7
LUK 5
DEF 6
RES 0-1
Kent has:
+1-3 HP
+2-3 SKL
+1 SPD
+1-2 RES
Sain has:
+2 STR
+2 LUK

Kent still wins offense since he has enough speed to double. His durability is better all around due to better HP and RES. And he's still winning hit and avo. As Lyn's part progresses, Kent's magic durability lead increases, and Kent's speed keeps his offensive lead against everything but the rare aromored unit. After chapter 4, they could both be at level 5 after waves of brigands, so then the leads change to:

Kent:
+1-2 HP 23-24
-2 STR 8
+3 SKL 8
+1 SPD 9
-2 LUK 3
-1 DEF 6
+1 RES 2
Sain:
-1-2 HP 22
+2 STR 10
-3 SKL 5
-1 SPD 8
+2 LUK 5
+1 DEF 7
-1 RES 1

Kent is now doubling brigands and ORKOing some, while Sain is only doubling archers that Kent kills anyways and 2RKOing all brigands. They're both 2RKOing Mercs. Kent is still winning offense, and their durability trades back and forth (when they have equal defense or Sain wins defense), but when Sain wins defense, the gap is so small that their concrete durability is basically equal, and against magic enemies, Kent will always win durability. As LM goes on, this stays the same against the vast majority of enemies. Only against high-defense enemies does Sain pull off a win offensively.

In other words,
Durabilty: Kent and Sain trade off concrete durability. When Sain wins defense, he wins concrete durability, but it's by so little (After 4 hits, Sain has one or two more HP than Kent. Wow) When they tie, Kent wins. Magic durability, however, Kent always wins.
Kent>Sain

Offense: Kent can double more often, so his damage output is higher there, and when they both double or neither double, Kent still kills the enemies just as quickly as Sain. Sain can only win offense if an enemy has enough defense that Kent is doing almost no damage, or if they have enough HP that Kent takes more time to kill them. Both are very rare if even existant.
Kent>Sain


Tactics: Kent often wins durability and offense, so he's helping us finish the chapters faster than Sain by killing faster and needing to be healed less, and for the first 2 3/4 chapters, Kent is 2RKOing the brigands, while Sain is 3-4KOing. Sain's also healing a lot early on, so he has no player phase sometimes besides taking way longer to kill an enemy.
Kent>Sain

Survival: Kent often wins concrete durability, and when he loses it's by so little it doesn't matter and he's always winning magic durability, and for the beginning, Sain is failing so much due to WTD that Sain actually needs to heal once every 2 or 3 turns if he's being used much, so he has to go and take one of Lyn's vulneraries or take Kent's to heal or he'll die, while for all of LM Kent is surviving better.
Kent>Sain

Combat: Kent wins durability AND offense. He obviously wins Combat.
Kent>Sain

EXP: Finally, they tie. Same EXP rates overall, same availability.

Funds: They about tie here, although Kent might pull off a minor win due to starting items, so I'll just say
Kent>Sain, although this is really close.

LHM, Kent>>>Sain.

Now, HNM. They both come in Chapter 16. If we say they're ~level 11, then we have
Kent:
+1-2 HP 28-29
-4 STR 10
+3-4 SKL 11
+1-2 SPD 11-12
-3-4 LUK 4
-0-1 DEF 7-8
+1-2 RES 3-4
Sain:
-1-2 HP 27
+4 STR 14
-3-4 SKL 7-8
-1-2 SPD 10
+3-4 LUK 7-8
+0-1 DEF 8
-1-2 RES 2

Their durability under identical circumstances is pretty similar, either one can win concrete durability, and when they do, it's not by much. For magic durability, Kent obviously wins with +1-2 RES and HP.
On offense:

Kent Jav/Iron Lance/ Steel Sword
ATK 16/17/18
HIT 89/104/99
AVO 20-22/22-24/22-24
AS 9-10/10-11/10-11

Sain Steel Lance/Iron Sword
ATK 24/19
HIT 86-88/106-108
AVO 14/22
AS 6/10

Mercs 8-9 AS, 4-5 DEF, 19-20 HP
Sain: DMG 20-21/14-15, HIT ~85/~90 1-2HKO/RKO
Kent: DMG 12-13/13-14/13-14, HIT ~85/~100/~80 2HKO/RKO
Myrmidons 9-11 AS, 2-3 DEF, 17-19 HP
Sain: DMG 22-23/16-17, HIT ~80/~85 1-2HKO/RKO
Kent: DMG 14-15/15-16/15-16, HIT ~80/~100/~80 2HKO/RKO
Mage 5-6 AS, 3 DEF, 20 HP
Sain: DMG 21/16x2, HIT ~75/~95 1-2HKO, 1RKO
Kent: DMG 13(x2)/14x2/15x2, HIT ~75/~90/~85 2HKO 1(-2)RKO
Archers 4 AS, 4 DEF, 21-22 HP
Sain: DMG 20/15x2, HIT ~80/~100 2HKO 1-2RKO
Kent: DMG 12x2/13x2/14x2, HIT ~80/~95/~90 2HKO 1RKO
Cav 6-7 AS, 7 DEF, 22-25 HP
Sain: DMG 17(+1)/12(-1)(x2), HIT ~70(+15)/~90(-15) 2HKO 1-2RKO
Kent: DMG 9(+1)(x2)/10(+1)(x2)/11(-1)(x2), HIT ~75(+15)/~90(+15)/~85(-15) 2-3HKO 1-3RKO
Peg 6-7 AS, 3-4 DEF, 15-18 HP
Sain: DMG 20-21/14-15(x2), HIT ~75/~80 1-2HKO/RKO
Kent: DMG 12-13(x2)/13-14(x2)/13-14(x2), HIT ~75/~90/~70 2HKO 1-2RKO
Brigands 5-6 AS, 3 DEF, 22 HP
Sain: DMG 20/17x2, HIT ~70/~100 1-2RKO
Kent: DMG 12(x2)/13x2/15x2, HIT ~65/~80/~100 2HKO 1-2RKO

Sain can OHKO mercs and myrmidons, and while at first it would appear good, it actually hurts his durability since that leaves him open to another attack. They both 1RKO mage and archers, but Kent can actually kill them on enemy phase, while Sain just takes more hits, and unlike taking out close-range enemies, there aren't very many 2 range enemies so you aren't leaving a space open for any unit to come in and attack you. Both can 1-2RKO enemy cavaliers, and Kent MIGHT 3RKO SOME if he has his javelin equipped and can't double, but he also might 2RKO all of them with his javelin. They both kill the pegasus knights and brigands just fine. Sain wins against a few enemies but puts himself in danger, Kent wins against a few enemies and doesn't put himself in more danger. Sain MIGHT pull off an offensive lead if you ignore the effects of it, but it is so minor, it doesn't make up for his durability losses.

Now, a few chapters later, and suddenly, Sain isn't OHKOing anything anymore, except maybe healers that anyone can ORKO. He also isn't doubling much, and so he isn't doing anything better than Kent offensively, especially once you factor in that Kent can use heavier weapons on units like mercs and myrmidons and not have to worry about being doubled, while Sain does, and Kent has better SKL to make up for the accuracy loss. So, on offense, neither are ORKOing much, and neither are doubling a whole ton, although Kent doubles more. Sain's +3-4 STR leads turn into +0-1 ATK leads since Kent can use Steel Weapons without worry, and he isn't finishing anything faster than Kent, anyways.
On durability, I'd say, +4 AVO, +2-3 HP, and +1-2 RES > +.2-3 DEF.

And, for Endgame, if we say they're both level 20/10, then we have
Kent Regal Blade/Rex Hasta/Basilikos
HP 46
DEF 14
RES 9
ATK 38/39/40
HIT 131/126/121
AVO 46/46/42
CRIT 10/10/10
CE 8/8/8
AS 21/21/19
Sain Regal Blade/Rex Hasta/Basilikos
HP 43
DEF 13-14
RES 6-7
ATK 45/46/47
HIT 122/117/112
AVO 43/43/39
CRIT 7/7/7
CE 14/14/14
AS 18/18/16

Now, Sain is probably pulling off an offensive lead against the morphs, but his durability isn't spectacular. At all. First off, he loses HP by 3, at best ties DEF, and loses RES by 2-3. That's not very good, and this is ignoring AS. 18 AS is probably getting doubled, and 16? Definitely, although neither of them are probably going to get Basilikos. He also doesn't have spectacular hit, and neither of them have great avoid, meaning that Sain is getting 1-2RKOed while Kent is getting 2-3RKOed. This brings up the question of whether or not you can even send him up against the morphs and the dragon, especially when his attack is worse with the weapons he'll be going into endgame with.



To sum it up, Kent wins early game hands down. Sain barely wins offense mid-game, but loses durability. Late game, Sain wins offense by a small amount again, but that doesn't matter so much when you consider his serious durability issues.

Kent>Sain.
?????????
???????
There, katakana. Happy?
QUOTE
Bobryk -- holy crap I look away for two seconds and I have knots all up in my shit

#2 Blood Falcon

Blood Falcon

    Halo fan

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  • 1,079 posts
  • Location:On your mom's bed. Under the covers with your mom. Showing off. My glow in the dark watch.

Posted 13 July 2009 - 07:30 PM

I'll have the rebuttle up soon.
user posted image

I won't remove this until I have gotten an overkill extermination in Halo MLG.-started August 13, 2010, 8-13-2010 Got it on December 18, 2010! WOOT!
I won't remove this until I get a killtacular in Halo MLG- Started December 29, 2010.
QUOTE
Bloodfalcon22-pokemanzz cnt dye
FELover3- If I beat the shit out of them they do

QUOTE
Rujio -- Cows are more important than anything.
Rujio -- ANYTHING

QUOTE
Blood Falcon -- Hey bblues, are you able to ban the GoogleBot?
bblues -- I don't think so.
Blood Falcon -- Damn, lol.
bblues -- He's above the law : P

QUOTE (Grey_Tensho @ March 10, 2010 04:07 pm)
Bloodfalcon is as crazy over copyright as youtube is lol.

#3 Blood Falcon

Blood Falcon

    Halo fan

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  • 1,079 posts
  • Location:On your mom's bed. Under the covers with your mom. Showing off. My glow in the dark watch.

Posted 23 July 2009 - 03:36 AM

QUOTE
I'll start with Lyn Mode.
Kent Iron Sword Lvl 1/0
HP 20
ATK 11
HIT 103
AVO 16
DEF 5
RES 1
CRIT 3
DODGE 2
AS 7
Sain Iron Lance Lvl 1/0
HP 19
ATK 15
HIT 90
AVO 16
DEF 6
RES 0
CRIT 2
DODGE 4
AS 6

Now, looking at these, it appears that Sain>Kent, right? Wrong. With the weapon triangle and forest effects, it becomes this:
Kent Iron Sword Lvl 1/0
HP 20
ATK 11+1(-1) 12(11)
HIT 103+15(-20) 118(98)
AVO 16+15(+20) 31(51)
DEF 5+1(+1) 6(7)
RES 1(+1) 1(2)
CRIT 3
DODGE 2
AS 7
Sain Iron Lance Lvl 1/0
HP 19
ATK 15-1(-1) 14(13)
HIT 90-15(-20) 75(55)
AVO 16-15(+20) 1(21)
DEF 6-1(+1) 5(6)
RES 0(+1) 0(1)
CRIT 2
DODGE 4
AS 6

Now, if both are attacking under equal conditions, Kent has +1 HP, -2 ATK, +43 HIT, +30 AVO, and +1 DEF. Kent is winning clearly in durability with his better HP and defense along with having a vulnerary when he joins, as well as +30 avo, and is hitting far more often, (If the enemy's in a forest, Sain has <50% hit)and thus wins offense as well.

Most people skip over Sain because of his low starting skill. But just give him Kent’s iron sword, or even Lyn’s! People don’t even think about that. They just think, “o sain haz a 67% chanze offf hitng? hez bad!” But that’s only because of the triangle disadvantage! Plus, you're making it worst possible situation for him with him having a lance and be attacking a bandit in a forest. Give him an iron sword and he’ll have around 77% chance of hitting! I think hitting about 77/100 attacks is pretty good. If he doesn’t double then he lands big damage on the bandit leaving it to be killed by Lyn. So he will outshine Kent and will be doing more damage, being more of a help.

QUOTE
The gap is only closed when you fight Glass in Chaper 2 and a few mercs in Chapter 3, when BOTH have WTA. Sain keeps his offense lead, might gain a miniscule durabilty lead, while stil getting hit more and missing more. And besides that, after two level ups, there's ~20% chance of Kent being able to double Glass, which, while unlikely, it's possible, while for Sain to double Glass, he needs three levels all with speed. That's a 6.4% chance. And of course, this is assuming it's possible to get 300 EXP before battling Glass, and that you actually manage to get Sain that EXP with those lovely stats he gets thanks to WTD. So for all of chapter 2, Kent can still destroy Sain. In chapter 3, it's a similar case, although Sain has a few mercs that he can fight as well as an archer. And, finally, 3/4 of the way through the chapter, he gets an Iron Sword for a few kills. So, for 2 3/4 chapters, he's doing next to nothing offensively, and not doing well at all defensively.

Kent can get more kills do to WTA, so at this point they'd be about here.
Kent 4
HP 22-23
STR 7
SKL 7-8
SPD 8
LUK 3
DEF 6
RES 2
Sain 3
HP 20-21
STR 9
SKL 5
SPD 7
LUK 5
DEF 6
RES 0-1
Kent has:
+1-3 HP
+2-3 SKL
+1 SPD
+1-2 RES
Sain has:
+2 STR
+2 LUK

Kent still wins offense since he has enough speed to double. His durability is better all around due to better HP and RES. And he's still winning hit and avo. As Lyn's part progresses, Kent's magic durability lead increases, and Kent's speed keeps his offensive lead against everything but the rare aromored unit. After chapter 4, they could both be at level 5 after waves of brigands, so then the leads change to:

Kent:
+1-2 HP 23-24
-2 STR 8
+3 SKL 8
+1 SPD 9
-2 LUK 3
-1 DEF 6
+1 RES 2
Sain:
-1-2 HP 22
+2 STR 10
-3 SKL 5
-1 SPD 8
+2 LUK 5
+1 DEF 7
-1 RES 1

Kent is now doubling brigands and ORKOing some, while Sain is only doubling archers that Kent kills anyways and 2RKOing all brigands. They're both 2RKOing Mercs. Kent is still winning offense, and their durability trades back and forth (when they have equal defense or Sain wins defense), but when Sain wins defense, the gap is so small that their concrete durability is basically equal, and against magic enemies, Kent will always win durability. As LM goes on, this stays the same against the vast majority of enemies. Only against high-defense enemies does Sain pull off a win offensively.


You're giving Sain the worst possible situation. By level 4 Sain will have 7.2 speed. Kent will only have 1 more speed. Assuming they both use a sword, both will most likely double. And for some reason people don't realize that they can give Kent's sword to Sain! Why not give it to Sain so he'll hit and land damage. Assuming you only raise 1 cavalier for Lyn mode. On chapter three, Sain will make a great wall for Wil to snipe from. Even if Sain is somehow having trouble to hit with a sword, give him Florina's slim lance, he can afford the low weapon attack.

QUOTE
In other words,
Durabilty: Kent and Sain trade off concrete durability. When Sain wins defense, he wins concrete durability, but it's by so little (After 4 hits, Sain has one or two more HP than Kent. Wow) When they tie, Kent wins. Magic durability, however, Kent always wins.
Kent>Sain

Offense: Kent can double more often, so his damage output is higher there, and when they both double or neither double, Kent still kills the enemies just as quickly as Sain. Sain can only win offense if an enemy has enough defense that Kent is doing almost no damage, or if they have enough HP that Kent takes more time to kill them. Both are very rare if even existant.
Kent>Sain


Tactics: Kent often wins durability and offense, so he's helping us finish the chapters faster than Sain by killing faster and needing to be healed less, and for the first 2 3/4 chapters, Kent is 2RKOing the brigands, while Sain is 3-4KOing. Sain's also healing a lot early on, so he has no player phase sometimes besides taking way longer to kill an enemy.
Kent>Sain

Survival: Kent often wins concrete durability, and when he loses it's by so little it doesn't matter and he's always winning magic durability, and for the beginning, Sain is failing so much due to WTD that Sain actually needs to heal once every 2 or 3 turns if he's being used much, so he has to go and take one of Lyn's vulneraries or take Kent's to heal or he'll die, while for all of LM Kent is surviving better.
Kent>Sain

Combat: Kent wins durability AND offense. He obviously wins Combat.
Kent>Sain

EXP: Finally, they tie. Same EXP rates overall, same availability.

Funds: They about tie here, although Kent might pull off a minor win due to starting items, so I'll just say
Kent>Sain, although this is really close.


Durability:
Touche.

Tactics:
Sain will have higher strength and he should be doubling brigands and archers in Lyn mode. And in Hector mode, once he's promoted, he should be doubling often. I'm sorry, but having 14.6 strength 20/1 is not going to be dealing any damage anytime soon.

Survival:
Sain will be fine if you give him Kent's sword.

Combat:
Sain will be doubling with a sword and he has higher strength.

EXP: It'll be harder to obtain EXP with Kent's low strength.

Funds:
You will have to make Kent use more expensive weapons due to his lack of decent strength. While Sain can use weaker weapons and not hurt your fund.



I will post the rest tomorrow
user posted image

I won't remove this until I have gotten an overkill extermination in Halo MLG.-started August 13, 2010, 8-13-2010 Got it on December 18, 2010! WOOT!
I won't remove this until I get a killtacular in Halo MLG- Started December 29, 2010.
QUOTE
Bloodfalcon22-pokemanzz cnt dye
FELover3- If I beat the shit out of them they do

QUOTE
Rujio -- Cows are more important than anything.
Rujio -- ANYTHING

QUOTE
Blood Falcon -- Hey bblues, are you able to ban the GoogleBot?
bblues -- I don't think so.
Blood Falcon -- Damn, lol.
bblues -- He's above the law : P

QUOTE (Grey_Tensho @ March 10, 2010 04:07 pm)
Bloodfalcon is as crazy over copyright as youtube is lol.



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