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#21 Mercurius

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 09:10 PM

 the older sprites don't look old enough for the older characters to seem consistent.

 

Meanwhile, in the Atelier franchise:

Spoiler

 

She's lived in a swamp all her life. I figured skin would be pale greenish if you spent enough time in a place like that.

I would think the only reason for that is either not bathing enough (so whatever's green and dyeing your face isn't being washed off thoroughly) or disease, which wouldn't be surprising in a swamp but, yeah. We aren't chameleons.

 

Anyway, I went and messed with Channah for 30 minutes or so cause zac mentioned some vague stuff about hair and because I'll have better things to say if I actually try to do something about it in FES' most active thread of the year.

 

Incidentally since I don't think anybody else commented on it from skimming the rest of what was said the formatting you did is fine. Refer to this if you're clueless about anything involving it:

Spoiler

 

Onto the changes, I'll try to remember what I actually did to it as I type.

Tez3zy4.png

  1. Introduced more broken up lines (basically more shorter lines instead of one continuous one) because with hair being the way it is, full of thin strands and all that bulked up together, it's not really a "solid" enough thing (unless it's wet) to necessarily warrant strong lines going all the way through. 
  2. Changed up the "texture", which might be in conflict with your artistic vision of the character, but the original version basically forces me to perceive the yellow part as some kind of makeshift hood thrown over her head. Some pixel artists out there don't really like this idea and instead like to make the hair as cleanly as possible, like it came out of an anime screenshot, and sometimes that works out for them. However, in this case of two-toned hair I feel that it was necessary to introduce more wild shapes into it (for lack of a better descriptive term) so that each color could flow better into each other.
  3. Added gradient to the inside lines also for the purpose of getting it to look somewhat more natural and hair-like within the kind of size and color limitations we have to deal with. In other words, I tried to have the lines become darker as they progressed further down in the hair and conversely lighter the further up they were. This isn't really important for sufficiently dark hair, but for lighter hair it makes a big difference.
  4. Removed the use of the outline inside the hair to define individual shapes because while this does well in showing separation between individual areas of the hair it stands out too much unless again, the hair is dark enough to get away with it. A lot of smoothness in art comes from the use of different values for lines depending on where it's supposed to be around to show a particular shape. Unfortunately we have color limits and have to deal with compromises from time to time but in this case the darkest brown used for hair shading did its job. Some outline remains as a kind of final shade, but since it isn't being used to make a shape stand out and because its used with a very dark surrounding color, it serves to grant the hair further detail without the need to add another color into the whole.
  5. Used the lightest brown in the left of her hair to provide the final shade of the right of her hair both as a color conserving means and because well it's two-toned hair anyway. That it isn't entirely neatly differentiated adds to the idea that both colors are meant to be there, especially if this happens to be her totally natural hair as opposed to a strange dye job or a wig that refuses to part ways with her.
  6. Darkened the yellow of the hair on the bottom right.  I tried to keep the change within the boundaries of your intentions because I expect people to design something with choices they meant to aim for, but the thing about hair that's meant to be dual colored is that to make it not appear jarring you have to make both colors reach a degree of similarity by decreasing the contrast between them, whether that means making it darker or less saturated or closer to each other on the color spectrum or whatever.

To really give a better idea of how important color value adjustments can be, this is what I did to refine Whitewolf8's mad hatter sprite:

 

98XyaGG.png

 

It becomes more and more evident the further you zoom in, but the contrast in the original's hair is so powerful that the pink of the hair starts searing through the green. The band on the hat and the collar also has too great of a contrast which makes it appear more like paper or metal than it does cloth (the intended material) and the adjustments to where the skin shades go on the face (which from what I remember was purely a matter of change in location rather than value alteration) serve to define the shape much more smoothly along with the hair than it would have before.

 

Now there's a reason why instead of giving any overall area to improve I pointed out specific differences, and only on one portrait instead of looking for trends among the gallery. Because art cannot be consistently done unless you choose to have a consistent image. Different ways of doing things have to be employed for different situations, and I think providing a difference in what you originally made rather than looking at someone else's character entirely will highlight that. Even the "After" versions between the top and bottom ones have things done differently with their hair, because I don't feel like the way it worked for one of them did for the other (which had a drastic change in color value) and thus had to adjust how I would make it work.


I believe in judgment of humans through their judgment of fiction, for nothing else tells better of their disposition freed from apprehension.


#22 Zelkami

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 10:10 PM

Thanks for the advice. I tried not to copy you directly, but here's what I have now.

CirWuzj.png



#23 Blue Leafeon

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 11:32 PM

Thanks for the advice. I tried not to copy you directly, but here's what I have now.

CirWuzj.png

Imo there's no shame in direct copying. I've done that when a friend fixed up my sprite...but then again, usually what she does is fix things beyond my power to fix.

 

I agree with merc's points about color contrast. Actually, I agree with most of his points.

 

@ merc's picture: Yeah but I'm talking about a 3-year-old little girl promoting into a girl that looks to be like what, 14? 16?

 

 


I also use the colorize function if I have to get a more distinct color. I try to copy the base skin colors whenever I can, but for others I have something specific in mind. Laia and Marici in particular are supposed to be extra pale for story reasons.

Colorize is the absolute worst thing when it comes to contrasts lol.

 

Okay, if you absolutely need to have SUPER PALE SKIN, allow me to do something here...

 

... You do realize you have SIX skin tones on this girl, right? ._.

eguYM5g.png

 

See how I replaced the two darkest skin tones with ones from FE8? See how it actually doesn't make her look any less pale, and actually makes the quality feel better? okay so some pixels might have to be replaced with the next color down due to darkness now, but meh, easily fixed. I also fixed her red eye's shine cuz it was bugging me.


IUfb9Eg.png


#24 Zelkami

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 03:07 AM

Think I finally nailed it.

tKoI8L1.png

 

Yeah but I'm talking about a 3-year-old little girl promoting into a girl that looks to be like what, 14? 16?

 She's supposed to be very early teens. I kind of thought her younger variant looked a bit younger than that, not toddler age. If you guys think it looks too young, I might just use it for a flashback or something.

 

Colorize is the absolute worst thing when it comes to contrasts lol.

Is there anything you notice with particularly bad contrast? I don't exactly remember where I used the colorize function, but if anything looks bad, I'll go back and change it using copied palettes.

 

... You do realize you have SIX skin tones on this girl, right? ._.

I actually did not. My guess is I forgot to recolor the neck area? I do like what you did with the skin though. I'll go back and apply that elsewhere.



#25 Mercurius

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 08:55 AM

Imo there's no shame in direct copying. I've done that when a friend fixed up my sprite...but then again, usually what she does is fix things beyond my power to fix.

Incidentally if for whatever reason Zelkami is afraid of being accused for stealing I have basically no reason at all to care if my alteration was used by them even without permission or credit given because Channah's both not my character and not even a portrait I made more than half of. (If anything I'd have to ask for their permission to use it for something that isn't theirs to choose if I wanted to for whatever reason.) The alteration was meant more to be reference for thinking about how they should approach improving the rest of their portraits anyway.

 

Yeah but I'm talking about a 3-year-old little girl promoting into a girl that looks to be like what, 14? 16?

What, you never had met that one grade schooler everybody mistook for an adult when you were a kid because they had one hell of an early growth spurt?

 

Also, do NOT mix FE6/7 and FE8 colors. It just doesn't work. You're going to have to make the clothes' shading darker to make it fit with the FE8-like border color. Common newbie mistake; I used to do it myself before I realized how awful it makes things look. The green shading on the shirt (and possibly the purple shading) needs to be darker.

Putting aside that I select most of my colors manually rather than copying them anyway (besides skin, and outline and that's really more because we've kind of been conditioned to be used to what skin GBAFE characters should have) this really isn't that big of an issue since as you mentioned you only need to make the shading darker, and usually not to the degree FE8 portraits tend to do things.

 

genderswappedlucius.png

 

My genderswapped Lucius for instance gives off an incredibly bright look (for once a white person is actually white enough to warrant the descriptive term) in comparison to pretty much every FE8 portrait but still rocks the FE8 outline anyway. As much as I would prefer to suggest that everybody just goes around choosing their colors from scratch anybody with access to a brightness slider can just adjust copied colors accordingly with ease.

 

There's kind of an unspoken rule about FE characters in that the older they are, the smaller their eyes and the larger their chins (if male.) Noah's eyes look a bit too young to fit with that face.

This is an anime thing in general, although the bigger jaw thing is rather common IRL because flesh loosening up is one of the horrifying consequences of losing one's youth. Still don't get why anybody wants older men in their forties to fifties. That said it's meant to be a progression more than anything. If someone was young and has a large jaw and/or small eyes anyway they aren't going to change that much going forward in those respects.

 

You simply cannot shade bright red with gray-red. It just doesn't work. Period.

They just need to adjust the shades a bit (the bright red first shade is too light even for bright red as-is) really. Anything works if they're close enough in the color spectrum. I've shaded magenta with indigo before due to color constraints.

 

Character M: For the parts of her hair that are colored differently, please go look at Heath. See how the lighter parts of his hair has its darkest shade as an 'outline' of sorts against the green? You need to do the same.

I would agree with this, but only because the contrast between the two colors are so high, and even then, the darkest grey shade should be used as a shape to form a gradient rather than a line. This is because unlike Heath the way her hair changes color is very linear (for lack of a better term) and if it were a lighter red I would rather suggest to make parallel the shades (so base color white goes into base color red, 1st shade grey goes into 1st shade red, etc.) The way it works demands for smoothness going down in other words.


I believe in judgment of humans through their judgment of fiction, for nothing else tells better of their disposition freed from apprehension.


#26 Blue Leafeon

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 10:53 AM

Putting aside that I select most of my colors manually rather than copying them anyway (besides skin, and outline and that's really more because we've kind of been conditioned to be used to what skin GBAFE characters should have) this really isn't that big of an issue since as you mentioned you only need to make the shading darker, and usually not to the degree FE8 portraits tend to do things.

You're more skilled with spriting and have a better grasp of what looks right. So you can afford to choose your own colors and stuff.

 

anybody with access to a brightness slider can just adjust copied colors accordingly with ease.

...I don't think I have a brightness slider. So what I usually do is use FE8 colors with a partially transparent brush to mix the skin tones until it looks right. I didn't with that particular sprite because that girl had 6 freaking skin tones, and it completely threw me off.

 

She's supposed to be very early teens. I kind of thought her younger variant looked a bit younger than that, not toddler age.

Maybe not exactly toddler age, but... Guinevere is confirmed to be 5-6 years of age.

 

Although I tend to think she looks more like she's younger than that, if only because  of the size difference in this.


IUfb9Eg.png


#27 Zelkami

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 01:31 PM

 

anybody with access to a brightness slider can just adjust copied colors accordingly with ease.

...I don't think I have a brightness slider. So what I usually do is use FE8 colors with a partially transparent brush to mix the skin tones until it looks right. I didn't with that particular sprite because that girl had 6 freaking skin tones, and it completely threw me off.

Should I be using every tool available? I did use the brightness function on a few characters, but I was worried it might mess with the image in some unforeen way, so I stopped doing it.



#28 Mercurius

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 07:57 PM

Woah woah woah woah woah hold up, what?

 

...I don't think I have a brightness slider.

 

I did use the brightness function on a few characters, but I was worried it might mess with the image in some unforeen way, so I stopped doing it.

 

Okay, no, this won't do, I really need to show you two how easy recoloring can be. Every tool used in my recording (with its 1.0x speed, clumsy, what-the-hell-am-I-doing glory) should be available in Paint.NET, (maybe you'll need to download some plugins but they are out there if for whatever reason they don't come with the program) which is freeware and thus doesn't require that you pay or pirate for it.

 

 

Tools used

1: Layers (pretty sure you two know what that is already and it's a pain to explain)

2: Magic wand (for those specific area selections)

3: Eyedropper (for copying colors)

4: Brightness/Contrast (for adjusting what it says on the name)

5: Hue/Saturation (for moving the color into something else on the spectrum or increasing/decreasing its intensity)


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#29 Zelkami

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 09:13 PM

Using the color picker and magic wand to recolor over all of a certain color? I already do that when I have to. My problem from what I understand is that I'm using the wrong colors.



#30 Mercurius

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 09:38 PM

There is no such thing as wrong colors. That's the kind of weird idea that makes people turn your black into blue and crimson into brown to "fix" it. (Yes, someone has done this before.)

 

It's a matter of what you want to make out of them. Any color combination is the right choice if you find your choices satisfactory.


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#31 Blue Leafeon

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 10:02 PM

There is no such thing as wrong colors. That's the kind of weird idea that makes people turn your black into blue and crimson into brown to "fix" it. (Yes, someone has done this before.)

 

It's a matter of what you want to make out of them. Any color combination is the right choice if you find your choices satisfactory.

Are you talking about "the dress"?

 

You say that, but there's times when colors clash in the most horrible way possible and you really do need to fix it. lol. Just because a person likes yellow and green doesn't mean they should make a webpage have a yellow background with bright green text. (I have seen this. It sucks.)

 

Also, lol at you getting all upset. I have all the easy tools for recoloring things and stuff. I just...don't think I have a brightness slider. Maybe I do and I have just not considered what it was called.  Is this the thing?

GdqXEQb.png

 

 

Using the color picker and magic wand to recolor over all of a certain color? I already do that when I have to. My problem from what I understand is that I'm using the wrong colors.

I wouldn't say they're wrong, per se, but that they don't quite work together. I had the same problem, although to show you some of my most offensive works would require digging out photobucket...if...my account still exists.


IUfb9Eg.png


#32 Zelkami

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 10:22 PM

I wouldn't say they're wrong, per se, but that they don't quite work together.

That's what I meant. Do any of my sprites that we haven't already covered really need to be reexamined in this area?

 

Also, Marici was looked like she was teetering on the Uncanny Valley somewhat, so I slimmed her body down and redid her head, but I think the far eye and her neck still look a bit messed up. Any input?

 

1sI60Me.png



#33 Mercurius

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 10:31 PM

You say that, but there's times when colors clash in the most horrible way possible and you really do need to fix it. lol. Just because a person likes yellow and green doesn't mean they should make a webpage have a yellow background with bright green text. (I have seen this. It sucks.)

If I recall correctly at one point of time the forum SomethingAwful had (a rather fittingly) awful color scheme that barely made anything on it easily readable...didn't stop people from paying an admission fee to sign up. Some people out there like that kind of thing apparently.

 

In any case anyone that draws something and realizes something about what they made isn't what they want out of it clearly needs to find out what they do want out of it rather than looking at what they've done as improper. And it's a billion times easier to correct colors to what you think they should look like when you can gradually adjust how bright/dark/intense it is to observe your options.

 

Are you talking about "the dress"?

No, that's a case of nobody having to interfere because everybody's brains are going out of whack themselves trying to figure out WTF is that shit.

 

(I have no idea what the program you're using is and thus can't answer whether there is a brightness/contrast slider in there.)


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#34 Blue Leafeon

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 11:10 PM

That's what I meant. Do any of my sprites that we haven't already covered really need to be reexamined in this area?

 

Also, Marici was looked like she was teetering on the Uncanny Valley somewhat, so I slimmed her body down and redid her head, but I think the far eye and her neck still look a bit messed up. Any input?

 

1sI60Me.png

The fact that her close eye does not have a shine, but her far eye does, is a bit...odd? Actually, who the flip did you use for the eyes. I've been messing around with it, and no matter what I do, it looks off.

qWQOm75.png

List of changes:
Added shading to the strand of hair going down her face

Added shading according to the Light Source on the hair going down over the collar

Removed the random white pixel in the gap in the hair
Did some stuff with the eyes

Darkened the second color on the cloak.

 

I really need to stop fixing things when I'm only opening them to look at them up close. lol


IUfb9Eg.png


#35 Zelkami

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 12:41 PM

Thought I replied to this much earlier, but I guess I messed up.

 

Anyway, that's mostly Lucius' face. I wanted her to have a more serious demeanor, so I chopped off some pixels above the eyes and moved everything above that down.

 

Think I fixed it though.

 lk7zIdv.png

 

I'm also in the process of redoing Laia's Tier 1.

daMsmUR.png

Know of any way to make the hand look more age appropriate?



#36 Zelkami

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 02:38 PM

I figure double posting is ok here since it's my own post and it's been a while.

 

http://i.imgur.com/XmvZdQa.png

 

Back with some more updates and a few new characters.

 

Nao is definitely not going to be left as she is. The recolor is just a base. I'll probably change the body or head gear when I can.


Edited by Zelkami, 19 September 2016 - 08:10 PM.


#37 Blue Leafeon

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 10:42 AM

I am much too groggy to give any decent critique at the moment, but I do want to say that you forgot their names. Makes a lot easier to critique when you can call them by name lol.


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#38 Zelkami

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 12:23 PM

Sorry about that: http://i.imgur.com/P33REEg.png

 As a disclaimer, this now contains assets from the NickT collection Ver1.0.

 

I'd also like to point out that I'm mostly satisfied with where everyone is right now, and I am going to move onto other parts of this project with a few exceptions.

 

- Young Marici needs colors adjusted.

- Lhyiu may be remade entirely again.

- Hamar's helmet needs to be cleaned up.

- Young Kavis needs some slight tweaking in the head area. Old Kavis needs more serious adjustments all around.

- Might slim down Teresa's jacket to make her look less poofy.

- Ferra's face may need to be replaced entirely.

- Durga's face needs to be cleaned slightly.

- Nao may be touched up in the future to make her look less like the base model.

- Jake's clothing color needs to be reworked.

- Clarice's eyepatch will be redone in the future.

- Clean up Tia's hair coloring.

 

EDT: I noticed that Hailey, Maya, Clarice, Howard, Tarin, Magni, and Anne all had incorrect skin colors. This has been corrected as of the time of this edit.


Edited by Zelkami, 21 September 2016 - 02:19 PM.


#39 Blue Leafeon

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 10:44 AM

Ugh Nickt.

 

Why is adult Lhylu's hair gray?

 

Leed and Nori's heads are a little bit short.

 

The green colors on Nelson seem a little too...light. It almost looks like it's glowing lol.

 

Otherwise, you seem to be getting the hang of this. Most of your observations are spot-on, as well. Something about young marci's eyes are bugging me, but I think it's like you said and she needs her skin tones replaced to be like the older variant.

 

Nice work.


IUfb9Eg.png


#40 Zelkami

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 03:50 PM

Lhyiu I had to redo completely again. Still being worked on, but this is what I have so far.

 

https://gyazo.com/37...53e5cadf6695f18

 

Noril and Leo are just straight recolors from Nickt. I liked the way they looked, so I just thought they'd be generic bosses. Leo's armor trim also needs to be changed I realize.

 

I'd actually prefer older Marici have slightly darker skin than the young. Basically, she's lived underground most of her life, and I figured she'd probably get slightly tanner if she'd been outside for some time. I think I might have it, but I'm not quite sure.

 

https://gyazo.com/3c...c7e5b98d41e4a39







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