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Crazy rioters


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#1 ^Leo^

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 10:09 PM

Welp, Baltimore has gone to shit almost overnight. People looting, and attacking police, destroying random property, and otherwise rioting. And why all the violence? The police arrested some guy who later died at the station. He was apparently having problems breathing on the way, but the police ignored it and took him in anyway. At the station they called for an ambulance, but the paramedics didn't get there in time to save him unfortunately. Now that's a good reason to be angry and PROTEST against the actions of THOSE police. And if the police didn't do anything about it, maybe you get violent against people responsible, however the commissioner himself made a public apology. He admitted that ignoring his cries for help eventually killed him. So the natural thing to do is to leave the problem to the people involved right? Hahaha WRONG. Now we have to destroy our city because the police killed a black man. Here's a fancy idea, don't destroy the place you're living in. But that would make sense. You'd need to think about it for a second. Instead these people are going to continue to make a already poverty stricken city even worse because they couldn't keep out of a problem they weren't even involved in.

#2 SmashedFish

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 11:38 PM

http://www.breitbart...ter-riots-rage/

 

Found a firsthand account of someone who got caught up in the riots and was thankfully able to get out safely. He seemed to miss a lot of the chaos due to making it into the stadium in time, but still, it sounds like hell broke loose.


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#3 kirant

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 08:39 PM

I honestly think this is symptomatic of a far greater issue...one far greater than the comments about police or race that many people talk about.

 

Media often talks about the two above.  It's an easy connection, right?  I think it's ~1/3 of black men in USA serve some prison time.  So there's a simple and easy parallel for media anytime violence between police and the populace vaguely labelled "black" by a "white" officer occurs.  But I must again stress that I think this is a symptom (and that there is something horribly wrong with that stat listed above) but not the end comment we should focus on when we talk about the string of riots since the riots are an extension of what I feel is the bigger issue.

 

I feel the bigger issue is a lack of trust of power in USA as a whole.  That is to say that Americans don't trust those in power.  And I feel it's easy to understand why: it's part of how USA's birth.  It's ingrained in their history.  A country born of rebellion and refusal to listen to oppressors.  Born of violence you might say.  As such, the sentiment of freedom and right to fight back stands close to the hearts of Americans.  Authority is virtually always viewed with scrutiny in the US.  The entire government is built with so many checks and balances that it's a nightmare to navigate.  Even worse is how your states and federal level interact; you still pretend you're 50 small countries getting together to organize minor things at a larger scale when in fact you act far different.  The constitution itself protects these State rights and makes things far uglier and hairier than they really need to be in terms of handling any law change as a nation.

 

This sense of independence and right of rebellion then trickles down to citizens.  Everyone would love to say they're global citizens and are those tied to Earth first and foremost but the truth is we're strongly affected by where we live. I'm a Canadian.  I love hockey.  I'm raised in a household of Chinese immigrants so I have undoubtedly been influenced by some of the traditional values of Chinese culture.  And so it goes that those born in a country which epitomizes and glorifies the American Revolution will strongly hold those rights close (it's always shocking to me how little Americans seem to know about the American Revolution).  And those values trickle into how people handle their case with police since they represent authority at a civilian level.  We don't like you so we'll protest with violence and fight for the rights of those we believe are close to us.

 

Ultimately too, there are people who are just taking advantage of the situation.  Violent anarchists (to separate from those who do not believe governments are useful but do not use this as an excuse to cause trouble) and gangs are known to kick dirt up during high tension situations.  I feel these were part of the problem in a few protests such as the one in Toronto and the Ferguson case. 


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#4 ^Leo^

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 09:16 PM

That's part of it in sure. You wouldn't have the United states without people going crazy over "freedom"(I use quotation marks because everyone interprets the word differently). Unfortunately you can't fix that. Actually a better way to put it is that we don't want it to be fixed. I don't want to get too deep into the psychology here, but the people of the US feel more collectively entitled to whatever they want than any other group I've ever seen. And that sense of entitlement(to the freedoms and rights guaranteed in the Constitution) clashes with the fact that people also want the government to protect them from everything bad. People want to say whatever they want, and they don't want somebody else to have that same freedom because another opinion is offensive. They want guns, but don't want to be shot. It's a horrible ideal, but it's rooted fairly deep into our society at this point. Another part is that our current president has basically gone mad with power which hasn't helped with getting people to trust the government to do their work.

#5 Mercurius

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 09:52 PM

I personally doubt that lack of trust in power is the main issue, or at least the cause of this one. I don't think this would have ever happened if it was a race that is better known to be immigrants in the country, usually those coming from East Asia or Mexico. They are just really sensitive about anything that might be threatening to african-americans, I don't even expect the holding up of signs that say "Asian Lives Matter" or anything if the same thing happened to me. Maybe some internet comments about revenge on the Japanese (even though my home country was and is more pissed off at them than anyone else lol) for Pearl Harbor or some shit though.

 

Rebellion is going to happen regardless of the values people are taught as long as they are strong enough to cause it. The reason for their fears is more relevant than anything.

 

Also, I feel like the cultural issue has more to do with the people that are heavy on the politics (no matter how stupid they are about it) than anything, which of course, is more talk than action. (I mean, it's politics.) I don't even notice what the President has done to this country. Too busy with my own problems to think too much about a bunch of abstract values which may or may not have anything to do with my life, and won't change anything about it until it's voting time(if even then.) Amendment what? Sorry dude I kind of snored through American History, and my Azn Power isn't high enough for law school, can you just shut up about this bullshit before you get a fist to the face. (unfortunately I have had to avoid doing that last part as of recently)

 

That's part of it in sure. You wouldn't have the United states without people going crazy over "freedom"(I use quotation marks because everyone interprets the word differently). Unfortunately you can't fix that. Actually a better way to put it is that we don't want it to be fixed. I don't want to get too deep into the psychology here, but the people of the US feel more collectively entitled to whatever they want than any other group I've ever seen. And that sense of entitlement(to the freedoms and rights guaranteed in the Constitution) clashes with the fact that people also want the government to protect them from everything bad. People want to say whatever they want, and they don't want somebody else to have that same freedom because another opinion is offensive. They want guns, but don't want to be shot. It's a horrible ideal, but it's rooted fairly deep into our society at this point. Another part is that our current president has basically gone mad with power which hasn't helped with getting people to trust the government to do their work.

Ideals and upholding people into them is always a problem, regardless of what it is. Societies are supposed to control humans so that they don't cause much trouble for the others (except the guys they don't want), which applies to every community, no matter the size. Feel-good values that encourage its members in spite of it not having any real impact on how the system will work in practice anyway wouldn't ever end up in helping anyone.


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#6 kirant

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 10:09 PM

That's part of it in sure. You wouldn't have the United states without people going crazy over "freedom"(I use quotation marks because everyone interprets the word differently). Unfortunately you can't fix that. Actually a better way to put it is that we don't want it to be fixed. I don't want to get too deep into the psychology here, but the people of the US feel more collectively entitled to whatever they want than any other group I've ever seen. And that sense of entitlement(to the freedoms and rights guaranteed in the Constitution) clashes with the fact that people also want the government to protect them from everything bad. People want to say whatever they want, and they don't want somebody else to have that same freedom because another opinion is offensive. They want guns, but don't want to be shot. It's a horrible ideal, but it's rooted fairly deep into our society at this point. Another part is that our current president has basically gone mad with power which hasn't helped with getting people to trust the government to do their work.

I think the stronger argument for me is that quite a few people just don't want to face reality.  I mean, isn't that what makes the early part of Persona 4 so enticing: that there's the inherent instinct in us to pretend we aren't all flawed individuals?  Americans don't want to be told that they are afraid of people with power over them.  Such statements expose people and make them feel vulnerable and the instinct is to cover and protect it.  But it explains a lot in this case, up to and including the pointlessly large military spending.

 

I'm not sure I'd agree with the last part on Obama.  It's certain that your federal government has, somehow, gotten more useless since he brute force passed the Medicare bill (which, at least in my mind, is a step in the right direction).  But I think he's been first and foremost just another politician.

 

 

I personally doubt that lack of trust in power is the main issue, or at least the cause of this one. I don't think this would have ever happened if it was a race that is better known to be immigrants in the country, usually those coming from East Asia or Mexico. They are just really sensitive about anything that might be threatening to african-americans, I don't even expect the holding up of signs that say "Asian Lives Matter" or anything if the same thing happened to me. Maybe some internet comments about revenge on the Japanese (even though my home country was and is more pissed off at them than anyone else lol) for Pearl Harbor or some shit though.

I don't doubt that the current atmosphere plays a factor. 

 

But what I wanted say is that part of the fact that riots occur as oppose to other options is a factor born of US history.  And that might have been my head thinking faster than I can type since I had been scrambling to think about Canadian history in relation to riots. 

 

 

Rebellion is going to happen regardless of the values people are taught as long as they are strong enough to cause it. The reason for their fears is more relevant than anything.

Yes, but what will inspire people to rebel will vary. 

 

Americans are taught from day 1 that their freedom and their liberty is provided because they fought for it, that they took a stand and put blood, sweat, and tears into it.  Some aspects of war, especially the American Revolution, are glorified to portray the Americans as heroes.  I don't blame them for that but that's part of how it's handled.  I hear some Americans speak of the Founding Fathers with a god-like reverence.  That they could do no wrong where even a cursory understanding would tell you that Washington was a terrible tactical general but an excellent manipulator and did an excellent job rallying troops.  Even more concerning is that a few Americans I speak to don't even realize the French involvement in it or how it affected European politics (namely, that part of the French Revolution's cause was a money problem exacerbated by their spending to support the American rebels...in a sense, they ran out of money waving a middle finger in the face of the British).  And it is this aspect that I feel makes it easier for Americans to resist authority with violence than other cultures.

 

Also, I feel like the cultural issue has more to do with the people that are heavy on the politics (no matter how stupid they are about it) than anything, which of course, is more talk than action. (I mean, it's politics.) I don't even notice what the President has done to this country. Too busy with my own problems to think too much about a bunch of abstract values which may or may not have anything to do with my life, and won't change anything about it until it's voting time(if even then.) Amendment what? Sorry dude I kind of snored through American History, and my Azn Power isn't high enough for law school, can you just shut up about this bullshit before you get a fist to the face. (unfortunately I have had to avoid doing that last part as of recently).

It's true that partisan politics are a major issue in USA and reinforces a "with us or against us" notion that people readily accept beyond what others already understand.

 

Re: Amendments: The US Constitution basically gift wraps the States powers unless they are otherwise legislated in specific documents.  In short, the States have powers which by all rights should be handled by a more central government.


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#7 Mercurius

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 10:13 PM

That inherent instinct is extremely important. Without it, everyone is going to end up suicidal. Even I have it long after surrendering any trust in my abilities.


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#8 kirant

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 10:32 PM

That inherent instinct is extremely important. Without it, everyone is going to end up suicidal.

And I'm not saying anything against that.  If I return to the Persona example I used, this is what drives half the boss battles: characters refuse to accept that this ugly aspect is part of them. 

 

What it does do is begin to limit how we perceive and understand things, to take an honest and critical look at the world.  We could say that some Americans struggle to accept the conditions of their society because they are Americans and therefore have an emotional vested interest in believing that their society is better than the statement says.  I mean, if I told you "You suck" and some other guy tells you "Nah.  You're good man", there's a vested interest in believing the other guy. 


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#9 Mercurius

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 10:41 PM

I'm more likely to believe the former guy. The latter guy is probably just saying something to either boost his social status in my perception or out of a desire to be nice to anyone and everyone.

 

In Persona 4 (note:I have only watched the anime) Tooru Adachi also shows a significant reason in why people need to deny themselves. The others do too, but he's the most serious about it, if those kinds of people are not tricked into believing they are someone else, they become detrimental to the overall group. Even the main characters wouldn't be considered decent people either(for whatever reason) if it wasn't for values from their environment shaping their public behavior, and I have doubts over the vast majority of people being considered what this so-called "decent person" is if it were not for that. It's not just me, there's a reason anyone believes those that came before were primitive and barbaric relative to how it is now.

 

Basically, it's all going to go to shit if we can't lie to ourselves, for both others and ourselves.


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#10 kirant

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 11:51 PM

Okay, serious warning: if whoever is reading this hasn't played Persona yet, please skip this since I basically drop half the game's end game sequence.

 

In Persona 4 (note:I have only watched the anime) Tooru Adachi also shows a significant reason in why people need to deny themselves. The others do too, but he's the most serious about it, if those kinds of people are not tricked into believing they are someone else, they become detrimental to the overall group. Even the main characters wouldn't be considered decent people either(for whatever reason) if it wasn't for values from their environment shaping their public behavior, and I have doubts over the vast majority of people being considered what this so-called "decent person" is if it were not for that. It's not just me, there's a reason anyone believes those that came before were primitive and barbaric relative to how it is now.

I think this ignores part of the context.  Adachi is played as an oddity and I think there's a great amount of effort put into pointing out that he kind of understands the nature of truth emphasized by the game, but also doesn't really understand it at the same time since he doesn't fully apply it to himself.

 

First, he's a sociopath far before he was ever given power.  The fact that he accidentally threw Yamano into the TV while what is likely an attempt at raping her reflects that he's already deflecting his interior pains away from him.  He doesn't accept the circumstances of his life and prefers to deflect it onto others.  It's not his fault he's out in the sticks...it's his superiors for throwing him out here for a "measly little mistake" (which, given his attitude, is likely probably quite a severe error).  It's not his fault he hasn't got a girlfriend.  It's the fault of women as a whole.  His entire motivation basically comes down to him saying that his life isn't fair and that he doesn't deserve what he got.  The anime has the characters shut him down on his rant but the game actually has him brush them off and the latter does a better job showing his mentality of a character full of delusion.  Either way...it's only after his defeat and exiting of the TV world that he begins becoming a reasonable human being again (heavily implied to be because of Dojima).  The extended ending (Golden re-release) does a far better job of this since it gives a comment by Dojima at the end of the game stating that Adachi has become a model prisoner. 

 

I would also claim that the above ignores the intentions of Izunagi in the first place: Adachi is her choice for representing the world's emptiness.  Namatame represents the world's despair.  Both of them prefer to delude themselves rather than face the truth: Adachi doesn't accept his circumstances and continues to blame others while Namatame pretends he's a great hero by chucking people into the TV after some prodding from Adachi.  The main character, or Yu from the anime, represents hope.  Him and his friends are the only ones who really go through the process of accepting themselves.  Adachi uses a perversion of Izunagi in battle while Namatame never summons a persona (instead, Kunino-Sagiri fights), a strong representation of how far off they are from the truth (okay, fine...they vary it up in the anime by giving Adachi three Reapers). 

 

Really, the game beats you over the head with the "don't lie to yourself" hammer over and over.  And over.  And over.  The game would be over much faster if that occurred.  And if the characters were half-decent investigators.

 

On the side, the anime isn't the best place to view the characters as the anime plays characters as parodies of themselves.  A great deal of the more reasonable and humanizing dialogue is glossed over in the anime since they're compressing a game of approximately 60-70 hours down to ~10-11.  For example, Chie is portrayed as a way more aggressive individual who beats on Yosuke way more than the game ever shows.  Though it is a lot of jerks when the game wants to play comedy.  Or when Kanji is involved because they have some strange fascination with making fun of him.  Actually, that side of Yosuke is just jerk behaviour in general.

 

Actually, I just don't like Yosuke. 

 

Basically, it's all going to go to shit if we can't lie to ourselves, for both others and ourselves.

I would certainly say that there's some instances where delusion works.  Grasping the scope of humanity is an impossible task for creatures which can only actually imagine about 120 actual humans with full mindsets and everything.  This type of scope problem is what makes Lovecraft so terrifying: we are parts of a world so big that we can't even comprehend it.  That some being gives us the same level of consideration as we would a small bug.  To develop a full understanding of everything is basically physically impossible.

 

But the truth is also a very powerful tool that we must utilize as well.  Facing the truth allows us to understand the situation and proceed forward.  Delusion only lets us stand still and cope.

 

In other words, there's a time and place for everything. 


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