Jump to content



Toggle shoutbox Shoutbox Open the Shoutbox in a popup

@  Fire Blazer : (15 September 2019 - 05:39 AM) I do kinda miss the days these forums were active :(
@  Ezra : (29 August 2019 - 04:14 PM) *BOX!!!*
@  kirant : (19 August 2019 - 12:49 PM) Huh. Bothammer time.
@  Elwood : (12 August 2019 - 05:57 AM) Oh, new posts! ...And it's bots. Kinda nostalgic actually.
@  xcrash1998 : (22 June 2019 - 09:24 PM) (Brushes dust of the Shoutbox)
@  Elwood : (17 June 2019 - 06:14 AM) *tumbleweed*
@  Lucina : (16 June 2019 - 09:19 AM) Whew. I haven't been here in forever.
@  Cero : (11 June 2019 - 06:51 PM) oof
@  kirant : (01 June 2019 - 05:54 PM) f
@  Fire Blazer : (30 May 2019 - 03:01 AM) rip
@  Valke : (29 May 2019 - 08:20 AM) bruh i deleted my discord a few months ago,,,,
@  Fire Blazer : (28 May 2019 - 01:59 AM) glad ur alive. join our Discord
@  Fire Blazer : (28 May 2019 - 01:59 AM) yo
@  Valke : (25 May 2019 - 03:08 PM) im alive, college finally gave me breaks (coupled with a few assignments i need to turn next week)
@  Valke : (25 May 2019 - 03:07 PM) hi
@  Valke : (25 May 2019 - 03:07 PM) guys
@  Fire Blazer : (25 March 2019 - 10:43 PM) how things have changed
@  Elwood : (12 March 2019 - 08:31 AM) (a sigh somewhere between small and large)
@  kirant : (12 March 2019 - 05:40 AM) (larger sigh)
@  Fire Blazer : (11 March 2019 - 08:49 PM) (small sigh)

Photo

Tino vs. Seraphinox


4 replies to this topic

#1 Tino

Tino

    Omega Member

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,089 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands

Posted 19 June 2009 - 10:16 PM

HHM S-ranked, I open, three posts each.

Coming soon.

#2 Tino

Tino

    Omega Member

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,089 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands

Posted 22 June 2009 - 02:53 PM

Since I'm always right when it comes to math, all I need to do is make this comparison and win the debate: Florina > Sain

I win...

Or do I?

I guess I'll have to do a bit more than that to earn my victory, no? Very well.

Let's look at a basic comparison when they rejoin:

lvl 10/0 Florina (C lyn, iron lance): 22 hp, 17 atk, 10 spd, 5 def, 7 res, 32 avo
lvl 10/0 Florina (C lyn, slim lance): 22 hp, 14 atk, 14 spd, 5 def, 7 res, 40 avo
lvl 10/0 Sain (iron lance): 26 hp, 20 atk, 10 spd, 8 def, 2 res, 27 avo

Florina doubles a good deal more than Sain does. So let's look at a Sain that doesn't double vs. a Florina that does double:

4 def enemy: Florina deals 20 damage, Sain deals 16
5 def enemy: Florina deals 18 damage, Sain deals 15
6 def enemy: Florina deals 16 damage, Sain deals 14
7 def enemy: Florina deals 14 damage, Sain deals 13
8 def enemy: Both deal 12 damage
9 def enemy: Florina deals 10 damage, Sain deals 11

So for Sain to beat Florina in raw damage output, the enemy needs to have 9+ def. Amount of enemies that have that much def in ch 16? None at all, with the exception of Bauker, the boss. So I daresay that Florina has the superior offense. And that's completely ignoring the ~30%ish chance she has to crit on a double, which gives her a very nice chance to kill.

Then Florina has better mobility due to flight, as well as existent res (2 res = lol). Pirate ship is a map where she is much, much better than Sain. She can screw over the left side shamans against which she can actually survive, and the right side sword users that she can actually double, not to mention all the water she can cross. That's three huge advantages she has over Sain there already.

After they promote, both kill pretty much everything and have practically no problems surviving. But Florina was better before promotion, so Florina still wins that part. Also, Florina has flight and incredibly large aid. This allows her to transport Hector to the throne, rescue some whimp like Lyn and drop her wherever safe (Sain's options are still limited since he's still a ground unit). She can also go with her sister (with which she has incest, which is awesome) to clear whatever part of the map, reach villages earlies, et cetera. Sain can't do any of that as good as Florina can.

So overall, I'd say that killing/surviving < killing/surviving/flight, and that thus Sain < Florina

#3 Seraphinox

Seraphinox

    Scribe of the Heavens

  • Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,263 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 22 June 2009 - 03:40 PM

QUOTE
I guess I'll have to do a bit more than that to earn my victory, no? Very well.


Not too much more...

QUOTE
Let's look at a basic comparison when they rejoin:

lvl 10/0 Florina (C lyn, iron lance): 22 hp, 17 atk, 10 spd, 5 def, 7 res, 32 avo
lvl 10/0 Florina (C lyn, slim lance): 22 hp, 14 atk, 14 spd, 5 def, 7 res, 40 avo
lvl 10/0 Sain (iron lance): 26 hp, 20 atk, 10 spd, 8 def, 2 res, 27 avo


I highly doubt they would come out at 10/0 7-8/0 seems more accurate. Unless

Even if Florina does double for both characters it is still a 2RKO.So Florina's weapon is going to break much faster.

QUOTE
And that's completely ignoring the ~30%ish chance she has to crit on a double, which gives her a very nice chance to kill.


30%? 5+8+ Support = 20ish, not thirty. and at the start of the chapter she is no where near Lyn and still has to get the support up (I know, only takes 3 turns) so she won't have that bonus the whole chapter.

QUOTE
Pirate ship is a map where she is much, much better than Sain

What happened to Whereabouts Unknown? Thanks to all the bows around in that chapter means that Florina won't even be used. While Sain does have some usage with a Javelin and high mobility.
Then you also have Port of Badon where Sain is useful because he has WTA against the pirates while Florina doesn't.

Then in Pirate Ship Canas/Lucius are doing a better job at killing those shamans(and need the exp), and even then there's only four of them excluding the boss. Same with the other side, at the start of the chapter there is three sword users, The water advantage means nothing since the ships are so close together.

QUOTE
After they promote, both kill pretty much everything and have practically no problems surviving

Sain would have promoted before Florina because the first Knight Crest comes much earlier then the first Elysian Whip which means he is more useful while she is still unpromoted. Also Sain has complete command over the weapon triangle which allows him to kill more enemies.

In the game there are a lot more Bows around then there are Horseslayers/Halberds/Longswords so Florina has a harder time surviving then Sain does, also she has lower defence.

QUOTE
Also, Florina has flight and incredibly large aid. This allows her to transport Hector to the throne, rescue some whimp like Lyn and drop her wherever safe

While yes Florina does have flight, the downside is that she gets no terrain bonuses which Sain can easily make use of.

Seeing as this Hard Mode, I highly doubt Lyn would be that "Wimpy" because there is no way that you are going to miss out on HHM Bonus Geitz.

QUOTE (The Best Matt)
"blazer posting sexy pictures.. was it tagged as blazzer?" 

QUOTE ( Oblivion)
Seraphiroth is over rated

user posted image

#4 Tino

Tino

    Omega Member

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,089 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands

Posted 22 June 2009 - 04:43 PM

QUOTE
I highly doubt they would come out at 10/0 7-8/0 seems more accurate.


Very well. That means they both lose 1 atk and 1 spd. This means Sain doubles even less th ings, while Florina pretty much continues to double nearly everything (she only fails to double the few 10+ spd enemies).

All it means is that Sain now wins damage output by 1 against 8 def enemies, but only the higher end cavaliers have that, which means Florina still wins against the vast majority of enemies.

QUOTE
Even if Florina does double for both characters it is still a 2RKO.So Florina's weapon is going to break much faster.


There are also other characters. Florina generally dishes out more damage and makes it easier for others to OHKO, while they might still eat a counter after Sain's attack since he deals less damage overall.

QUOTE
30%? 5+8+ Support = 20ish, not thirty. and at the start of the chapter she is no where near Lyn and still has to get the support up (I know, only takes 3 turns) so she won't have that bonus the whole chapter.


Two turns, actually. And with Florina's flight, she can get to Lyn easily so she has the support for at least half the chapter.

Also, she has about 6 + 5 + 5 (skl / 2 + slim lance + lyn support) = 16 crit. That means she has a chance of 0.84 * 0.16 to crit once. That means she has a 0.1344 chance to crit. Or actually, since there are two possibilites (crit/nocrit and nocrit/crit), that value is doubled to roughly a 27% chance to crit per double. I rounded it up to 30 for simplicity's sake, but I guess it's fine like this, too.

QUOTE
What happened to Whereabouts Unknown? Thanks to all the bows around in that chapter means that Florina won't even be used. While Sain does have some usage with a Javelin and high mobility.


It's true that Florina has some trouble in the chapter you mentioned. However, if what you said holds true (that she won't be used), her usefulness in pirate ship still > his usefulness in whereabout unknown. Besides, his usefulness in whereabouts unknown comes from nothing but combat, combat and combat. Nothing too impressive, really. I've plenty other units that can do the same thing.

QUOTE
Then you also have Port of Badon where Sain is useful because he has WTA against the pirates while Florina doesn't.


Actually, Florina might be able to safely ferry someone over to Fargus to talk to him, so I'd argue Florina's more useful there than Sain, as Florina can fly over the walls and such (and over the water so she could approach Fargus by taking a slightly longer route, possibly).

QUOTE
Then in Pirate Ship Canas/Lucius are doing a better job at killing those shamans(and need the exp)


Say what? Since when did we care if Lucius might possibly do it better than Florina (I doubt he does, but Canas surely doesn't with his pretty high fail stat)? I mean, it's about Sain vs. Florina. If we would go by your logic, Florina would automatically win, because she has combat and flight, whereas Sain has just combat. Cancel out the ones that are the same, and it's flight vs. nothing, which means Florina would automatically win.

QUOTE
Sain would have promoted before Florina because the first Knight Crest comes much earlier then the first Elysian Whip which means he is more useful while she is still unpromoted.


He also has a lot more competition for it in the forms of Lowen, Kent and Oswin. So overall I wouldn't rule out them promoting at around the same time.

QUOTE
In the game there are a lot more Bows around then there are Horseslayers/Halberds/Longswords so Florina has a harder time surviving then Sain does, also she has lower defence.


Yet she has no large problems surviving. I wonder how that's possible... Either way, Florina's flight completely overrides Sain's possibly better survivability, so it's nothing that gives him a win over Florina, really.

QUOTE
While yes Florina does have flight, the downside is that she gets no terrain bonuses which Sain can easily make use of.


And she can reach every spot of the map a lot faster than Sain. I'd say massive mobility (and therefore massive flexibility, which Sain lacks almost completely) far overrides getting some terrain bonuses she barely needs anyway. She benefits from the occasional fort she heals herself on for a turn or something, but she doesn't need the terrain bonuses at all.

QUOTE
Seeing as this Hard Mode, I highly doubt Lyn would be that "Wimpy" because there is no way that you are going to miss out on HHM Bonus Geitz.


Her durability sucks nonetheless. Run the numbers yourself and you'll see I'm right.

#5 Seraphinox

Seraphinox

    Scribe of the Heavens

  • Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,263 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 26 June 2009 - 10:58 AM

Watch me get eaten alive...

QUOTE
All it means is that Sain now wins damage output by 1 against 8 def enemies, but only the higher end cavaliers have that, which means Florina still wins against the vast majority of enemies.

But neither are killing so it doesn't really matter. And even so, Florina is only doing three more damage at the most to the enemies so even if Sain did attack the weaker characters would still be able to pick them off. Even then, In Noble Lady of Caelin, Florina isn't able to navigate very freely due to the two Ballista on the map.

QUOTE
There are also other characters. Florina generally dishes out more damage and makes it easier for others to OHKO, while they might still eat a counter after Sain's attack since he deals less damage overall.

As said, Sain deals enough damage to let the enemy be one rounded, unless the character is really underleveled. eg. Rebecca, but even if she didn't kill she wouldn't eat a counter.

QUOTE
Also, she has about 6 + 5 + 5 (skl / 2 + slim lance + lyn support) = 16 crit. That means she has a chance of 0.84 * 0.16 to crit once. That means she has a 0.1344 chance to crit. Or actually, since there are two possibilites (crit/nocrit and nocrit/crit), that value is doubled to roughly a 27% chance to crit per double. I rounded it up to 30 for simplicity's sake, but I guess it's fine like this, too.

Oh that makes more sense. math is impeccable

QUOTE
It's true that Florina has some trouble in the chapter you mentioned. However, if what you said holds true (that she won't be used), her usefulness in pirate ship still > his usefulness in whereabout unknown. Besides, his usefulness in whereabouts unknown comes from nothing but combat, combat and combat. Nothing too impressive, really. I've plenty other units that can do the same thing.


I see no reason why flying would help you in Pirate ship. There are about 10 enemies at the start of the chapter, they immediately move and you can reach them with most any character on the second turn. Why would Florina fly over the water? To kill a shaman on turn 1?

QUOTE
Actually, Florina might be able to safely ferry someone over to Fargus to talk to him, so I'd argue Florina's more useful there than Sain, as Florina can fly over the walls and such (and over the water so she could approach Fargus by taking a slightly longer route, possibly).

And waste all the good exp in the chapter? Sure if something goes wrong she can quickly get to Fargus, but Sain makes a good shield with a sword equipped and healer backup. While florina would just get mauled by those Pirates.

QUOTE
Say what? Since when did we care if Lucius might possibly do it better than Florina (I doubt he does, but Canas surely doesn't with his pretty high fail stat)? I mean, it's about Sain vs. Florina. If we would go by your logic, Florina would automatically win, because she has combat and flight, whereas Sain has just combat. Cancel out the ones that are the same, and it's flight vs. nothing, which means Florina would automatically win.

How does flight help? The map isn't very large and Sain could easily reach those shamans by turn 2, then killing them isn't a problem.

QUOTE
He also has a lot more competition for it in the forms of Lowen, Kent and Oswin. So overall I wouldn't rule out them promoting at around the same time.

Touché

QUOTE
Yet she has no large problems surviving. I wonder how that's possible... Either way, Florina's flight completely overrides Sain's possibly better survivability, so it's nothing that gives him a win over Florina, really.

Florina has pretty fail defence for the whole game, while Sains isn't too much better, he atleast has HP so he can take a hit. Florina is extremely frail, if more then two units gang uo on herm she's practically dead. Sure flight helps, but not by much if you can't survive.

QUOTE
And she can reach every spot of the map a lot faster than Sain. I'd say massive mobility (and therefore massive flexibility, which Sain lacks almost completely) far overrides getting some terrain bonuses she barely needs anyway. She benefits from the occasional fort she heals herself on for a turn or something, but she doesn't need the terrain bonuses at all.


Oh yes because flying head first into enemy territory is always a good idea. Sain is never far behind in terms of mobility. Survivability > movement. Sain can stand his ground and block off the enemies if he has a terrain bonus to boost his avoid, instead of Florina who would just run away due to bad defence/HP

QUOTE
Her durability sucks nonetheless. Run the numbers yourself and you'll see I'm right.


Point taken...
QUOTE (The Best Matt)
"blazer posting sexy pictures.. was it tagged as blazzer?" 

QUOTE ( Oblivion)
Seraphiroth is over rated

user posted image



Reply to this topic



  


1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users