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Inconsequential stats (couldn't think of a better title)


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#1 Mercurius

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 12:51 AM

Is anyone else weirded out by how JRPGs seem to have this tendency to include a whole bunch of extra fluff stats for no particularly important reason in-game? This is most apparent with resistances, such as resistance to fire/water/lightning/earth/wind/light/dark/etc. or poison/stun/bleed/slow/etc. or even to specific damage types like slash/blunt/thrust and the like. (usually resistance to generic physical v.s. magical damage is relatively important overall though)

 

I mean, you can make these important by actually making a certain enemy incredibly resilient against a whole bunch of these kinds of things, but a lot of the time you really only have to pay attention to physical and magical damage, if even that. This applies to both the player and the enemy, oftentimes paired with the strange situation of not being able to view the enemy's status anyway, meaning that you couldn't tell what they were strong or weak against without referring to their appearance (in cases where that's actually reliable)...

 

Sometimes, even the basic stats like STR/DEX/INT don't really seem to demand relevance, esp. in cases where you have weapon-locked classes anyway to separate damage types. You know, those situations where you really only have to think "that guy is a warrior, meaning STR = damage, that's a mage, meaning INT = damage"...

 

Just seems like a hassle to actually have all of these extra variables when they don't even matter the majority of the time anyway.


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#2 ^Leo^

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 02:21 AM

i don't mind elemental resistances in games, or seperating physical damage into different types for that matter. it makes sense for someone with an affinity for ice magic to be able to resist ice magic as well. and in the same vein of logic someone with only chainmail is going to resist slashing attacks, but a blunt weapon like a club or a hammer is still going to send the energy from the attack directly into the body. now in cases where it doesn't really matter like your typical final fantasy style jrpg i don't think they should even try. spd, str, def, and mag. split up the magic stat into defense and offense if you want, but i think they should be linked myself. as a wizard/witch/mage/whatever learns more spells he's naturally going to become better at defense and offense. one may come more naturally, but he will still learn both kinds of spells as he progresses. aaaaaaaaand my thought process was interrupted...i really can't remember where i was going so i'll just leave it at that for now.



#3 kirant

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 04:52 AM

Not really.  I could play a massive spreadsheet simulator with dozens of stats which are situational/niche.  None of that bothers me.

 

Really, the only thing that's clear is that developers are hesitant to use their resistance/weaknesses enough because they often go for "double/half" variations.  That friggin' Void Giant in Persona 4 (immune to everything but physical attacks, where it has sky high defence).  I would say that a game which has more reasonable damage increase/decrease rates could pull the changes much better. 


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#4 Fire Blazer

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 07:00 PM

I'm not weirded out per se, but yeah, I guess those stats often do exist--they may or may not apply, a lot of the times the advantages or disadvantages are minuscule enough that it doesn't matter much and you can go along with the same old equipment or attacks or whatever

 

Like, part of the problem is probably that most gamers are lazy and/or bad and don't spend a lot of time really delving into the details of a game's battle system or the like when it's not necessary. Like, it's much easier to just get some powerful equipment and keep using that instead of always adjusting and adapting.

 

Granted I think the latter is more challenging, rewarding, etc. and it's nice when game devs try to legitimately implement stats and resistances into their games instead of just making it kind of fluff or easily ignorable, but yeah, I do get where they're coming from in terms of not making that all mandatory and overwhelming more casual players... *sighs* it stinks in a sense—it's very difficult to appeal to all sorts of people at once—but whatcha gonna do


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#5 Blue Leafeon

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 08:51 PM

I still have very little knowledge on what stats do in Star Ocean: Second Story, and I've played the game for YEARS. In fact it's one of my favorite RPG's of all times. I know DEX translates to hit, AGL, somehow affects evasion (not that you ever evade anything but spells anyway) INT raises spells, STR raises physical, GUTS is a weird stat that does some weird things...

Then we have luck. I don't know what luck does. There's even a character whose luck is fixed at 20 and he doesn't really seem suffer much at all from it.

 

That's also one of those games with TONS AND TONS of elemental strengths/weaknesses, but it's less of an overall stat and more of an armor/accessory/weapon affinity. The remake apparently reduced the amount of elements to 5 or whatever.

 

For that matter, though, what about luck in FE? Its most useful utility is crit avoid. It translates into hit somehow, I think, and possibly into evasion? Or crit? Wait, yeah, crit. The fact that I really don't know what it does besides crit avoid is a major sign that it's probably not REALLY that necessary. lol


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#6 Mercurius

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 11:34 PM

In situations where evasion can be modified and it isn't just a matter of how often the word "miss" will show up in place of damage numbers, it usually refers to the number of invincibility frames you have and either extending the period of time you cannot take damage or the reverse. If not that, it may refer to the size of your hitbox decreasing, or the distance of which you can reach when performing some evasive action extending. No idea otherwise.

 

If I recall correctly luck can add to your general avoidability in FE. Since we have stat caps, a character that has 60% speed and 30% luck growth may end up being significantly harder to hit than one that has 90% speed growth and 0% luck growth. I also remember it not actually adding to one's critical rate in the GBA games.

 

I'm not weirded out per se, but yeah, I guess those stats often do exist--they may or may not apply, a lot of the times the advantages or disadvantages are minuscule enough that it doesn't matter much and you can go along with the same old equipment or attacks or whatever

 

Like, part of the problem is probably that most gamers are lazy and/or bad and don't spend a lot of time really delving into the details of a game's battle system or the like when it's not necessary. Like, it's much easier to just get some powerful equipment and keep using that instead of always adjusting and adapting.

 

Granted I think the latter is more challenging, rewarding, etc. and it's nice when game devs try to legitimately implement stats and resistances into their games instead of just making it kind of fluff or easily ignorable, but yeah, I do get where they're coming from in terms of not making that all mandatory and overwhelming more casual players... *sighs* it stinks in a sense—it's very difficult to appeal to all sorts of people at once—but whatcha gonna do

It's pretty hard to actually make these fluff stats highly relevant. You're either going to make some enemy ridiculously overpowered (like kirant's Void Giant example) by making them have no actual weakness or the enemy is going to have too many weaknesses to actually have a reason to care. Not to mention for balance purposes you're going to have to give a player the tools they need to actually deal with whatever comes at them.

 

Like for example, let's say that early on in a game, you encounter a generic Knight enemy. This enemy is very competent for the stage of the game you're at because you don't really have a huge number of options. They are resistant to physical, wind, slash and thrust attacks, and are not likely to be afflicted by bleed or stun status effects. However, this also leaves them vulnerable to magical, blunt, fire, water, earth, light, and dark attacks, particularly weak against lightning attacks, and still vulnerable to poison and slow.

 

Later on in the game, you meet the Knight's recolored super-cousin Magic Knight. Magic Knight is resistant against physical, magical, slash, thrust, and all of the elements...but still have a weakness to blunt damage and are easy to cripple through status effects.

 

In both cases they have their strengths and weaknesses but the Knight is so vulnerable the only particular reason they are going to be threatening is because you haven't reached the point in the game where you have a mage or a blunt weapon user (and you can probably just ignore the rest of the weaknesses anyway.) The Magic Knight however has a ton of resistances and the game needs to be designed for the player to be capable of actually exploiting the weaknesses it has left, which will either make them a cakewalk anyway or just an annoyance that asks you to change up your setup. (Or they just end up being a really overpowered enemy.)

 

Magic Knight is probably a decent enemy to include in a game like Fire Emblem (what with our inventory limits and resource management across a large team and everything) but it's going to be a headache for both the player and the game designer to find out how to make Magic Knight be an effective feature of the game in situations where your game mechanics focus on a small number of deployed units. Then there's the issue of how you would make several enemies like Magic Knight so that you can create diverse situations that won't be solved by just equipping the best set-up v.s. Magic Knight. Because if you don't...we're back to that point where all these fluff stats don't exist for any important reason (aside from maybe making the occasional overpowered enemy...though you don't need fluff stats for that either.)


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#7 Fire Blazer

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 04:16 AM

I still have very little knowledge on what stats do in Star Ocean: Second Story, and I've played the game for YEARS. In fact it's one of my favorite RPG's of all times. I know DEX translates to hit, AGL, somehow affects evasion (not that you ever evade anything but spells anyway) INT raises spells, STR raises physical, GUTS is a weird stat that does some weird things...

Then we have luck. I don't know what luck does. There's even a character whose luck is fixed at 20 and he doesn't really seem suffer much at all from it.

 

That's also one of those games with TONS AND TONS of elemental strengths/weaknesses, but it's less of an overall stat and more of an armor/accessory/weapon affinity. The remake apparently reduced the amount of elements to 5 or whatever.

 

For that matter, though, what about luck in FE? Its most useful utility is crit avoid. It translates into hit somehow, I think, and possibly into evasion? Or crit? Wait, yeah, crit. The fact that I really don't know what it does besides crit avoid is a major sign that it's probably not REALLY that necessary. lol

 

yooo

 

shout-outs to Star Ocean TSS's "Stab the Sword of Justice"

 

in fact, probz gonna play that rn

 

@luck, yeah actually when I saw this thread I think I instinctively thought about luck lol. It actually IS kinda important--it helps a little bit with hit and evade, and in FE1/2 it helps with crit, aside from the very important critical avoid it grants, but in the end everything it does but critical avoid can be done by a different stat, so with the right balance of other stats you can completely get away with having very low luck--and on the other hand, having very high luck won't do you much good since it's useless when enemies tend to have low crit and you have enough luck to stop that much (like, after you get X amount of luck its usefulness decreases more and more as it only helps with hit/evade a tiny bit)

 

 

 

 

...

 

*reads through Merc's wall* (sorry don't wanna quote it cuz it's so long)

 

yeah that basically all made sense. ultimately it does depend on the game and such though. like in certain Tales of games elemental attacks can do notably more damage, notably less, do 0-1 damage, or even heal the enemy, but then I guess that comes down to how many variations and such are there, and those aren't so much stats, so eh

 

yeah in the end I guess it's just difficult for it to not be fluff and still be executed well, but... at the same time, maybe that's not so bad in cases where that's what people want. a sense of it being convoluted, or complicated formulas, or things only mattering a tiny bit but not mattering in the grand scheme of things--I mean, I know for one that I wouldn't want games with say, 8 stats just being decreased to 3 stats to make things simpler and minimize "fluff". I think a bit of fluff often comes with a bit of inherent value, maybe it's a 20:80 value:fluff ratio but eh.

 

ironically in my own game I'm decreasing the amount of stats to keep things simple and I also like how Ys does it (with your 3 stats being HP, strength, and defense in older games—very straight-forward) but yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that even if sometimes it doesn't make sense or fluff is there, in the end I'm not particularly bothered by it/I'm relatively ok with it, for what it is. *shrugs*


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#8 Blue Leafeon

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 10:54 AM

 

yooo

 

shout-outs to Star Ocean TSS's "Stab the Sword of Justice"

 

in fact, probz gonna play that rn

 

@luck, yeah actually when I saw this thread I think I instinctively thought about luck lol. It actually IS kinda important--it helps a little bit with hit and evade, and in FE1/2 it helps with crit, aside from the very important critical avoid it grants, but in the end everything it does but critical avoid can be done by a different stat, so with the right balance of other stats you can completely get away with having very low luck--and on the other hand, having very high luck won't do you much good since it's useless when enemies tend to have low crit and you have enough luck to stop that much (like, after you get X amount of luck its usefulness decreases more and more as it only helps with hit/evade a tiny bit)

omg somebody else I know who has heard of/played SO2. *high fives*

 

Oh, so it doesn't help with crit in the GBA games. lol. Yeah, you have a point. After a certain point, the only thing that Luck's gonna do is help with avoiding certain death to Killer weapons. (And even then, if you have the right supports in certain games, you don't even need luck to do that.)

 

The fact that luck's formula for helping other things usually involves having multiple points of luck just to have 1 point of whatever else REALLY doesn't help, I guess.


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#9 Fire Blazer

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 02:29 AM

omg somebody else I know who has heard of/played SO2. *high fives*

 

Oh, so it doesn't help with crit in the GBA games. lol. Yeah, you have a point. After a certain point, the only thing that Luck's gonna do is help with avoiding certain death to Killer weapons. (And even then, if you have the right supports in certain games, you don't even need luck to do that.)

 

The fact that luck's formula for helping other things usually involves having multiple points of luck just to have 1 point of whatever else REALLY doesn't help, I guess.

 

haha just heard of it really because I'm so lazy, I did play a tiny bit but I'm so lazy and bad, I don't think I'll ever beat it... game is so retro compared to now and these days I don't have a lot of patience for retro games, maybe part of it is that I'm more used to modern games now/I play so many games in general that I lose motivation easier, idk >< still, battle theme is dope

 

and yup @ the luck talk, not much else to be said


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