Jump to content



Toggle shoutbox Shoutbox Open the Shoutbox in a popup

@  Elwood : (12 August 2019 - 05:57 AM) Oh, new posts! ...And it's bots. Kinda nostalgic actually.
@  xcrash1998 : (22 June 2019 - 09:24 PM) (Brushes dust of the Shoutbox)
@  Elwood : (17 June 2019 - 06:14 AM) *tumbleweed*
@  Lucina : (16 June 2019 - 09:19 AM) Whew. I haven't been here in forever.
@  Cero : (11 June 2019 - 06:51 PM) oof
@  kirant : (01 June 2019 - 05:54 PM) f
@  Fire Blazer : (30 May 2019 - 03:01 AM) rip
@  Valke : (29 May 2019 - 08:20 AM) bruh i deleted my discord a few months ago,,,,
@  Fire Blazer : (28 May 2019 - 01:59 AM) glad ur alive. join our Discord
@  Fire Blazer : (28 May 2019 - 01:59 AM) yo
@  Valke : (25 May 2019 - 03:08 PM) im alive, college finally gave me breaks (coupled with a few assignments i need to turn next week)
@  Valke : (25 May 2019 - 03:07 PM) hi
@  Valke : (25 May 2019 - 03:07 PM) guys
@  Fire Blazer : (25 March 2019 - 10:43 PM) how things have changed
@  Elwood : (12 March 2019 - 08:31 AM) (a sigh somewhere between small and large)
@  kirant : (12 March 2019 - 05:40 AM) (larger sigh)
@  Fire Blazer : (11 March 2019 - 08:49 PM) (small sigh)
@  Fire Blazer : (25 February 2019 - 05:07 AM)
@  Fire Blazer : (06 February 2019 - 04:34 AM) Cardfight Vanguard X? huh
@  Mercurius : (05 February 2019 - 10:49 PM) THE ONE SWITCH GAME I WANTED TO HAPPEN THE SECOND I LEARNED IT WAS REGION FREE PRE-RELEASE OMFG 2019 IS GIVING ME EVERY SINGLE REASON TO HAVE BOUGHT IT WOULD PAY ONLINE FOR 10/10

Photo

"Men Must Be Needed Because We Can't Be Wanted"


  • Please log in to reply
4 replies to this topic

#1 kirant

kirant

    I won't go until it's over

  • Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,420 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 July 2013 - 06:24 AM

http://goodmenprojec...cant-be-wanted/

Interesting read about gender roles and how we've been born to understand them.

Any thoughts? Comments? Different points of view?

RedBlue.png
Shameless Self-Plug - Updated May 30 - A Letter to a Younger Me – Anime Edition


#2 Mercurius

Mercurius

    Ars est celare artem

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,408 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Digital art, idealistic stories, MMOs, SRPGs, hunting games, FAAAAAAAAAAABULOUS-ness, and staying out of the social order.

Posted 27 July 2013 - 05:54 AM

I can say that I can see what it's referring to, but I can't say that I can understand the feelings of who it is talking about, since I have always wanted to be a person that is desired for charm over how necessary it is, due to my irresponsibility(being liked primarily for applications causes failures to become far heavier) and due to how it is how I tend to favor others. Oh and because it's the most relevant thing to something I could like myself for (vanity yay)

One thing the article mentions that I have not witnessed with actual people yet is someone trying to blame themselves for being failures for being unable to present themselves as necessary enough for someone else to rely on, the blame is usually placed on another for being unable to see how great they are instead, and those they selected to be their sexual partners(that rejected them) are typically disdained for their preferences of someone else, who they will disdain as well. I've seen that happen with women going for men too, though.

Oh and i've seen people care about their purpose to the world too, but that one is always significantly less actively worked for than appeal to sexual partner selections, and I can totally get why people wouldn't give as much of a shit for their reason to be born in this world (it's a significantly less immediate concern.) That one is also common in both men and women anyway as far as i've seen.

These days, I do not see many(either men or women) try to place importance on desirability due to appearance, even if it is subconsciously maintained. It is usually downplayed, that "looks don't matter", that "it's whats inside that counts", "beauty is skin deep", etc. that is nevertheless not followed and seems to effectively be said either in ignorance or for the purpose of making themselves look like "better people", but that is only an observation from me and I have never attempted to confirm it with confrontation and personal questioning.

There is however one specific feeling I have had that may be related, that being unable to provide as much for the other as the other does for me, when the other is someone I love. However this is entirely dependent on the other being someone that provides, the other is already someone that is being valued for their actions(though not exclusively) to begin with, so I get this feeling that says I should be someone that should actively provide for them as well for the purpose of raising the level of equality in the relationship, though at the same time, this is largely relevant to my value on myself over the opinion of others, so it doesn't require the desires of the other either, making it not a desire to be recognized as necessary.

I believe in judgment of humans through their judgment of fiction, for nothing else tells better of their disposition freed from apprehension.


#3 kirant

kirant

    I won't go until it's over

  • Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,420 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:39 AM

QUOTE (Tenebrae Candidae @ Jul 26 2013, 10:54 PM)
One thing the article mentions that I have not witnessed with actual people yet is someone trying to blame themselves for being failures for being unable to present themselves as necessary enough for someone else to rely on, the blame is usually placed on another for being unable to see how great they are instead, and those they selected to be their sexual partners(that rejected them) are typically disdained for their preferences of someone else, who they will disdain as well. I've seen that happen with women going for men too, though.

I think I see a lot of what you see too. It could be who we've met. I mean, this article heavily talks about those who see feminism, even the first wave, as "trying to replace men with women". I myself am a liberal feminist which [self plug] as I mentioned in my blog actually is a stream which looks at simple basic equalities: if a man a women do literally the same job with the same experience and other credentials, they deserve the same pay[/self plug]. As such, I probably don't feel the same as the men they're discussing. I mean, the guys we're probably talking about are likely to post how the "nice guy" gets pushed aside for the "asshole" very quickly, right? At least, I see a lot of "nice guy syndrome" coming from people and I think that may extend to your case...and it may not be the crowd they're talking about as I suspect the "nice guy" will be more supportive of feminism, at least first wave.

RedBlue.png
Shameless Self-Plug - Updated May 30 - A Letter to a Younger Me – Anime Edition


#4 Mercurius

Mercurius

    Ars est celare artem

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,408 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Digital art, idealistic stories, MMOs, SRPGs, hunting games, FAAAAAAAAAAABULOUS-ness, and staying out of the social order.

Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:23 AM

QUOTE
and it may not be the crowd they're talking about as I suspect the "nice guy" will be more supportive of feminism, at least first wave.

The article doesn't seem terribly interested in what feminism is causing in general so I don't think it's particularly trying to imply how that's the problem or at least part of it they need to fix.

Something weird i've noticed is how people usually take sides in which to support in particular though, regardless of if all of them are seeking equality. Men's rights activists, feminist movements, anti-racism, people that try to remove homosexuality's taboo or whatever, they're so often relevant to raising one group to the level of the other rather than everyone that's having issues with the system/culture.

Anyway, I think there's another thing I don't quite understand about the article, if men are culturally brainwashed into believing they must be necessary, why are there so many men in the world that aren't trying to be incredibly active tools of society in general, why is it that this behavior becomes prominent when it is specific to infatuation? Laziness can be found anywhere. Also, most guys(along with girls but they aren't the focus of the article) I have spoken to when it comes to family matters state that their parents love them(and that they should, even the really gloomy ones typically say that they can count on their parents if no one else), so it seems the blindness to being seen as desirable due to charm seems to be rather conditional. Either that or for some reason there's just a ton of people within my range that don't fit very well into statistical claims for whatever reason.

I believe in judgment of humans through their judgment of fiction, for nothing else tells better of their disposition freed from apprehension.


#5 kirant

kirant

    I won't go until it's over

  • Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,420 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:55 AM

QUOTE (Tenebrae Candidae @ Jul 27 2013, 09:23 PM)
The article doesn't seem terribly interested in what feminism is causing in general so I don't think it's particularly trying to imply how that's the problem or at least part of it they need to fix.

Nor was I implying it was the problem, but that I was thinking of why they might not have considered it. It appears to be an article directed to those who seem to consider the impact of feminism a threat.

QUOTE (Tenebrae Candidae @ Jul 27 2013, 09:23 PM)
Anyway, I think there's another thing I don't quite understand about the article, if men are culturally brainwashed into believing they must be necessary, why are there so many men in the world that aren't trying to be incredibly active tools of society in general,

Necessity to society =/= being a necessity by strictest definition. You simply have to feel you have a purpose and be depended on. Being a necessity to society is only a form of that. You can be needed to someone you love (where you can have a low paying and trivial job, but are depended on to bring money home), for example.

QUOTE (Tenebrae Candidae @ Jul 27 2013, 09:23 PM)
why is it that this behaviour becomes prominent when it is specific to infatuation?

Internatlization. Sociology would hypothesize that at least. We are raised to think things and they then can become parts of our personality. For example, is a bright pink a masculine or feminine colour? We have no natural disposition, but almost instinctively say it's feminine. That's part of our values, passed onto us from what we learned growing up. Something similar comes here. We're raised to think "thou must act this way to get a girl" or "stop acting like that or else you won't attract the right kind of man". And many would argue that this becomes why we seriously consider these notions.

QUOTE (Tenebrae Candidae @ Jul 27 2013, 09:23 PM)
Also, most guys I have spoken to when it comes to family matters state that their parents love them, so it seems the blindness to being seen as desirable due to charm seems to be rather conditional.

Or their parents lied tongue.gif

Seriously though, I think this side is pretty irrelevant. The concept is that males have been raised such that they, in some way or some form, must feel needed. Or at least that it fulfills them. Having love from charm (which is also separate from family matters) is nice, but they feel so much better if they have to be relied on. In the same paragraph you reference, the guy feels better after being able to add to the relationship by being relied on for a ride.

I admit, this doesn't fit me at all. I really see romantic relationships as saying "I'd like to explore the world with this person", something shared by two equals. I don't want to be relied on anything further than I am needed for and don't want to rely on someone else for more than I need. The old notions of having someone stick around at home and "care for kids" or something is complete bunk (which is quite funny since when I talk to my brother, we get in a lot of philosophical debates over this, him being quite a traditionalist). But, I also realize I'm generally not the example to follow. I'm a 3 percentile introvert (meaning only 3% of the world is more introverted than I am) and a rare mindset type (INTJ on the old Myers Briggs Typology, which is 2% of the populace), so I'm hardly the person to speak for the majority

I've heard stories of people who have kept on their lives because they felt people enjoyed their internet streaming (one, a classmate of mine, admitted he'd be dead if it weren't for the fact that he had an audience). This is much more consistent with the theory.

There are too many variables on that other side.

RedBlue.png
Shameless Self-Plug - Updated May 30 - A Letter to a Younger Me – Anime Edition





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users