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Pegasus Knights or Wyvern Knights?
Started by Bobryk, Dec 29 2010 06:36 AM
56 replies to this topic
#41
Swordsalmon
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Posted 31 January 2011 - 04:34 AM
| QUOTE |
Its just bad strategy to give the Afa's drops to a unit like Florina, who does not benefit from them. Heath has very high Stat caps, and he does not normally reach them. With the drops, and over 30 levels to make use of them, he will reach most of them Florina, has reasonably average stat caps, many of which she will reach normally. You've already had Florina for many, many chapters, so she should be a Falcoknight. In the long run, they will make next to no difference. Like I said, give the drops to a low level, not so brilliant unit, who doesn't normally hit their caps. My Candidates: Heath Dart Matthew (Needs Strength and Skill, badly) Legault Hector (Needs speed...badly) |
Looking at Afa's Drops again; they don't actually even help that much. I think it's safe to say Heath will be about level 20/10 at endgame, and that's with all the favortism he's getting. His total stat gain from Afa's Drops (Rounded up) is...
HP: +2
Str: +1
Skl: +1
Spd: +2
Lck: +1
Def: +1
Res: +1
So... Heath gets 9 bonus stats, and that's overall his entire time. I'll make an end-game comparison of Afa's Drops Heath compared to Florina.
Heath, level 20/10 w/ Killer Lance
HP: 56
Atk: 36
Def: 19
Res: 10
AS: 23
Avoid: 59%
Crt: 42%
True Crt: 35.7%
Florina, level 20/15 w/ Killer Lance/Killing Edge
HP: 42
Atk: 35/34
Def: 13
Res: 20
AS: 22/24
Avoid: 80/84%
Crt: 66%
True Crt: 77.22%
Lyn A, Fiora B
Yep... still looks like Florina is edging Heath out. Also, if Heath is getting 9 bonus stats, it's only fair that Florina gets a stat-booster. There's an Angelic Robe in Lyn's mode, and Florina has little competition to get that. So actually, Florina's HP may be 49 instead of 42.
Also, it's ridiculous to give Matthew or Legault a stat booster past early-on. Neither are going to be effective combat units ever (Except Matthew early on, but that's for only so many chapters).
| QUOTE |
If you think Heath is hard to train, how do people manage to train Nino? She comes at level 5, with pathetic stats. Heath is usable when you get him, and you have a lot of chapters where durable fliers come in handy. On HHM in chapter 32 (Victory or Death), my heath tanked out 4 ballistas, 2 snipers, 3 Wyvern Lords, about 6 Knights and a General, in 1 turn. This was after being targeted by Berserk, Eclipse, and various ballistas, as he went straight for the villages North of the s tarting point. Tell me he doesn't come in handy. Wheras Farina, who attempted to tail him, at level 20/12, got taken down to under 10HP when hit by 1 ballista. Farina is significantly better than Heath if he doesn't get the bonuses/ My Farina had very good stats (though her defence was about 2 points under the average), but Heath was simply the better unit. Farina may be able to double hit more enemies, but both of her hits combined with a silver sword did 2 more damage than 1 hit from Heath's Steel lance of doom. Next time you play HHM, try it. If it turns out badly, feel free to yell at me. Oh, and I always choose the Thunder element, as Hector is Thunder affinity, and he needs all the speed he can get. I base my choice off of who benefits the most. Its a small added bonus for Heath, but I choose it for Hector. |
Nino isn't trained. Though she might be easier to train than Heath, given she has a subchapter with lots of easy Pirates and Wyvern Riders to fight, and can promote at level 10 to gain Staffs and thus some sort of use. :/
...Personal experience. You got lucky with the RNG, and that's really it. I once had Matthew survive a lot of attacks by Soldiers and Knights once; I'm still not going to claim Matthew has incredible durability.
I have used Heath in HHM before. All the fliers in that playthrough, actually. He's unimpressive.
...The tactician bonus doesn't increase growths. It gives a slight Avoid bonus to same-aligned characters, and that's dependant on your rank stars. It doesn't help much at all. :/
| QUOTE |
I'm also looking at Eda's growths now, and they do seem pretty lackluster...if only I was this lucky with leaf. |
The same uses a singular RNG, so the low growths are exactly what they say. She'd do a lot worse growth-wise in a GBA game.
#42
ablon08
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Posted 31 January 2011 - 05:33 AM
If you can't get Florina to level 20/20, you aren't using her enough/training too many people.
Same with Heath.
Run the stats again at 20/20 for both of them please.
As for easy pirates and wyverns,all of them OHKO her.
It doesn't get much easier than that. If you want to talk babying, you have to have her constantly surrounded, and protected from ranged attacks until she becomes a Sage.
In the mean time, to get to the chests before the thief, you need to kill the majority of those pirates and wyverns anyway
The only way you could clam that it is easy to train Nino in 26X/28X, is if you use the mine trick.
The chests have some pretty amazing items...
Even after that, a level 1 Sage is extremely under levelled by chapter 27. Your Lords should be your lowest level, and the one you promote first should be around level 12 by the end of 26X.
I think you are training too many people if you can't manage to get Heath and Florina to 20/20.
Either that or I'm training too few, and just getting some amazing units out of it.
Also, Florina isn't exactly easy to use in Lyn's mode. its easier to do a Hard Mode Lyn-Solo run than to baby Florina to a decent level.
Fiora and Farina are the only ones I can use without babying the firstfewbunch of levels.
Same with Heath.
Run the stats again at 20/20 for both of them please.
As for easy pirates and wyverns,all of them OHKO her.
It doesn't get much easier than that. If you want to talk babying, you have to have her constantly surrounded, and protected from ranged attacks until she becomes a Sage.
In the mean time, to get to the chests before the thief, you need to kill the majority of those pirates and wyverns anyway
The only way you could clam that it is easy to train Nino in 26X/28X, is if you use the mine trick.
The chests have some pretty amazing items...
Even after that, a level 1 Sage is extremely under levelled by chapter 27. Your Lords should be your lowest level, and the one you promote first should be around level 12 by the end of 26X.
I think you are training too many people if you can't manage to get Heath and Florina to 20/20.
Either that or I'm training too few, and just getting some amazing units out of it.
Also, Florina isn't exactly easy to use in Lyn's mode. its easier to do a Hard Mode Lyn-Solo run than to baby Florina to a decent level.
Fiora and Farina are the only ones I can use without babying the first
| QUOTE (Average Stats Guide on GameFAQs) |
| At a certain point of the game, if you're playing with a tactician, Archsage Athos will give him/her a present: Afa's drop an one use item that increases the "maturity" of a chosen character. Using this item on a character have two different effects: - It doubles all the experience gained by that character in battle - It increases by +5% all the character's stats' growth (just like tactician's elemental bonus) |
"Paragon" + 5% growths with the Afa's Drops + 32 Levelups=
With Afa's Drops:
HP : 60 MAXED
Atk: 27 MAXED
Skl: 25 MAXED
Spd: 24 MAXED
Luc: 15/30
Def: 21/28
Res: 11/22
Con: 10
Not looking so pathetic any more.
His Speed Cap is a little low, but since he has the Con not to get a penalty from using a Lance of decent power, The only enemies that are likely to double attack him are Lloyd and Uhai in the final chapter. Why he would be fighting Uhai I have no idea, but...yeah.
It is absolutely unreasonable to suggest that you could give the Afa's drops to Florina, and gain max benefit from it.
The guy who wrote the guide agrees with me:
| QUOTE |
| Before giving Afa's drop to a character you should consider how many stats he maxes "naturally" (the lesser the better, so very average characters are usually the best choice), and also you should consider if the character has already tactician's element bonus and/or Hector's hard mode bonus (see below). There are very little characters that would obtain a noticeable effect from Afa's drops if they also have one of the other bonuses, the most important being Canas: since he is under-average in pretty much anything and he is still useful because he is the only dark mage of the game, giving him Afa's drop even if your tactician's element is Anima do actually make sense. |
I guess Canas should probably go on my list too, I just don't like Druids though.
At least I know I'm not alone on my views regarding Heath anymore.
Add to that the Hard Mode bonus, and affinity bonus, which according to this guide DOES boost growths, you have a powerhouse. Even if the guide is wrong, more hit/avoid is still helpful.
Double Experience, should be able to get him to a 20/1 by the end of the Linus chapter. Its as good a time as any to break out your second Axereaver. A Javelin doesn't hurt either.
I also like to have 2 Psychic staves in my Supply at this point, and I usually have a healer needing the experience, so I break them out too.
Guide Link:
http://www.gamefaqs....blem/faqs/27248
Your 20/10 stats for Heath don't look accurate either. His HP is likely going to be lower, and I can't be bothered running the Maths.
You an't call personal experience any more, as those are the averages with the Afa's drops, given at the starting level, which is a plausible scenario, unlike giving a Level 1 Florina the drops, and managing to train her without Arena Abuse.
Like I, and the guide says, it is pointless to give them to a promoted unit, and if Florina isn't promoted at this stage, she doesn't have the stats to compete with heath once he reaches about level 12.
For once, the maths supports my case, so I urge you to try it out before declaring that Florina, or anyone other than Guy is the better unit.
I would call Heath more useful than Guy, simply because he can fly and has a natrual 8 movement. I also consider him a candidate for the Boots, as it is just fun to have 10 movement, and the ability to fly over mountains. I guess I prefer to give the boots to Nils though, but thats a different story. I'm a Nils/Reyson/Tethys/Elphin/....? Fanboy
#43
Swordsalmon
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Posted 31 January 2011 - 09:18 PM
| QUOTE |
If you can't get Florina to level 20/20, you aren't using her enough/training too many people. Same with Heath. Run the stats again at 20/20 for both of them please. |
Heath is around for 12 chapters in the game (Exluding 30, 32x), so he'd be gaining an average about two levels a chapter. That's actually generous for Heath, since in reality he won't be trained for at least three chapters (Chapters 21-22x). So actually, that's about 2.5 levels for nine chapters.
If Heath was to get to 20/20 in this time, he would have to be gaining about three levels a chapter in twelve chapters, or about four levels a chapter for nine chapters. That's extremely unlikely.
Also, Heath is a massive liability in Cog of Destiny, so he probably won't be fielded there, either. :/
Florina is around for about thirty chapters, so getting to 20/15 would give a total of .88 levels a chapter. With all that time, Florina could get to 20/20, but that'd likely due to favortism.
My estimates are overall the most accurate for their final chapter performance.
| QUOTE |
As for easy pirates and wyverns,all of them OHKO her. It doesn't get much easier than that. If you want to talk babying, you have to have her constantly surrounded, and protected from ranged attacks until she becomes a Sage. In the mean time, to get to the chests before the thief, you need to kill the majority of those pirates and wyverns anyway The only way you could clam that it is easy to train Nino in 26X/28X, is if you use the mine trick. The chests have some pretty amazing items... Even after that, a level 1 Sage is extremely under levelled by chapter 27. Your Lords should be your lowest level, and the one you promote first should be around level 12 by the end of 26X. |
Not really. Most those Pirates/Wyvern Riders are weighed down by Steel Axe/Lance, so Nino is reliably doubling. Of course it's still difficult (And a waste) to train Nino, but she at least has the benefit of helping the EXP rank. Which is more than Heath is doing. :/
Regardless, Nino remains terrible.
| QUOTE |
"Paragon" + 5% growths with the Afa's Drops + 32 Levelups= With Afa's Drops: HP : 60 MAXED Atk: 27 MAXED Skl: 25 MAXED Spd: 24 MAXED Luc: 15/30 Def: 21/28 Res: 11/22 Con: 10 Not looking so pathetic any more. His Speed Cap is a little low, but since he has the Con not to get a penalty from using a Lance of decent power, The only enemies that are likely to double attack him are Lloyd and Uhai in the final chapter. Why he would be fighting Uhai I have no idea, but...yeah. It is absolutely unreasonable to suggest that you could give the Afa's drops to Florina, and gain max benefit from it. The guy who wrote the guide agrees with me: I guess Canas should probably go on my list too, I just don't like Druids though. At least I know I'm not alone on my views regarding Heath anymore. Add to that the Hard Mode bonus, and affinity bonus, which according to this guide DOES boost growths, you have a powerhouse. Even if the guide is wrong, more hit/avoid is still helpful. Double Experience, should be able to get him to a 20/1 by the end of the Linus chapter. Its as good a time as any to break out your second Axereaver. A Javelin doesn't hurt either. I also like to have 2 Psychic staves in my Supply at this point, and I usually have a healer needing the experience, so I break them out too. |
First of all, the guide on GameFAQs is outdated. If you're going to use a source, Serenes Forest is the definite Fire Emblem reference site.
The only benefit to Afa's Drops is that it increases all growth rates by 5%. It doesn't double experience or anything. As such, Heath still isn't making it to 20/20.
It's really saying something when Heath would need doubled experience gains, Afa's Drops, and the nonexistant affinity growth boost to compete with Florina.
The maximum Avoid you can get as a bonus is a grand 5%, and that's if you are getting an S rank the entire game.
| QUOTE |
Guide Link: http://www.gamefaqs....blem/faqs/27248 Your 20/10 stats for Heath don't look accurate either. His HP is likely going to be lower, and I can't be bothered running the Maths. You an't call personal experience any more, as those are the averages with the Afa's drops, given at the starting level, which is a plausible scenario, unlike giving a Level 1 Florina the drops, and managing to train her without Arena Abuse. Like I, and the guide says, it is pointless to give them to a promoted unit, and if Florina isn't promoted at this stage, she doesn't have the stats to compete with heath once he reaches about level 12. For once, the maths supports my case, so I urge you to try it out before declaring that Florina, or anyone other than Guy is the better unit. I would call Heath more useful than Guy, simply because he can fly and has a natrual 8 movement. I also consider him a candidate for the Boots, as it is just fun to have 10 movement, and the ability to fly over mountains. I guess I prefer to give the boots to Nils though, but thats a different story. I'm a Nils/Reyson/Tethys/Elphin/....? Fanboy |
Fire Emblem Averages has the most reliable stat averages around. I always round up/down when debating for simplicities' sake.
Anyone can benefit from increased growths. Anyone is thus a candidate for the Drops. Though it doesn't matter much, since ultimately the growth gain isn't too high. :/
What. Guy is one of the best characters in the game. He's one of the few reliable characters early-game, proceeds to one-round just about everything after promotion, has support options, and is benefitting the team for just about the entire game. Guy is a much, much greater asset than Heath will ever be.
#44
ablon08
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Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:43 AM
Firstly, you've misunderstood what I've said about Guy.
Guy is my favourite unit, by far.
Random: Guy, with A Support with Matthew, B with Priscilla, and use Nils's song that boost critical hit chance, give him a Wo Dao, and if he's got around 15 luck, he will get 117% Critical hit chance. Seriously, the game designers didn't cap it at 100, and this is a completely legit way to pass 100.
Anyway, I did the maths, and with the 5% added, it will still come out to that average, which is funny, as my Heaths look very similar to it.
You haven't trained Heath. As he is underlevelled, in chapters 23-25, he should be getting about 5 levels or more per chapter.
Killing promoted enemies, which isn't too hard, nets him about 70 EXP earlier on, so he is really easy to level.
By the time he hits a Wyvern Lord, he becomes even easier to train, as he can fly into enemies without support of any kind.
Cog of Destiny, Heath is actually amazing. Throw him one Talisman, and he can take out the entire section of Monks and whatnot in the middle of the map.
Javelins 1 hit them, and the monks do surprisingly little damage. They have low Magic power.
I threw Farina in there for a turn when heath needed a heal (after 4 turns of being attacked by magic), and she JUST survived 1 turn.
They were both 20/10 at the time.
You are still just theorising about how difficult it would be to train Heath.
Its significantly easier than Florina.
And still, if you think you should just give anyone the Afa's Drops, that is incredibly bad strategy.
Hell, why not just give them to Athos. It'd have he same effect.
NOT anyone can benefit from increased growths to the extent that someone like Heath, Canas, Dart, or others like them do.
For the maximum effect, they need to be used on someone who is
a) low levelled, preferably under level 15, unpromoted
WOULD NOT NORMALLY MAX THE STATS.
Florina is likely to cap several of her stats anyway, so the Afa's drops would, in the long run, have no effect on those stats.
Heath isn't likely to cap anything without them, but the maths shows what I said above.
I'm not going to bother debating, at least about Heath, any more, until you have tried him out, with the hard mode bonus, with the affinity bonus (even if it is as you say, and doesn't increase growths), and with the Afa's drops.
It all adds up.
Guy is my favourite unit, by far.
Random: Guy, with A Support with Matthew, B with Priscilla, and use Nils's song that boost critical hit chance, give him a Wo Dao, and if he's got around 15 luck, he will get 117% Critical hit chance. Seriously, the game designers didn't cap it at 100, and this is a completely legit way to pass 100.
Anyway, I did the maths, and with the 5% added, it will still come out to that average, which is funny, as my Heaths look very similar to it.
You haven't trained Heath. As he is underlevelled, in chapters 23-25, he should be getting about 5 levels or more per chapter.
Killing promoted enemies, which isn't too hard, nets him about 70 EXP earlier on, so he is really easy to level.
By the time he hits a Wyvern Lord, he becomes even easier to train, as he can fly into enemies without support of any kind.
Cog of Destiny, Heath is actually amazing. Throw him one Talisman, and he can take out the entire section of Monks and whatnot in the middle of the map.
Javelins 1 hit them, and the monks do surprisingly little damage. They have low Magic power.
I threw Farina in there for a turn when heath needed a heal (after 4 turns of being attacked by magic), and she JUST survived 1 turn.
They were both 20/10 at the time.
You are still just theorising about how difficult it would be to train Heath.
Its significantly easier than Florina.
And still, if you think you should just give anyone the Afa's Drops, that is incredibly bad strategy.
Hell, why not just give them to Athos. It'd have he same effect.
NOT anyone can benefit from increased growths to the extent that someone like Heath, Canas, Dart, or others like them do.
For the maximum effect, they need to be used on someone who is
a) low levelled, preferably under level 15, unpromoted
WOULD NOT NORMALLY MAX THE STATS.Florina is likely to cap several of her stats anyway, so the Afa's drops would, in the long run, have no effect on those stats.
Heath isn't likely to cap anything without them, but the maths shows what I said above.
I'm not going to bother debating, at least about Heath, any more, until you have tried him out, with the hard mode bonus, with the affinity bonus (even if it is as you say, and doesn't increase growths), and with the Afa's drops.
It all adds up.
#45
Swordsalmon
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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:30 AM
| QUOTE |
Firstly, you've misunderstood what I've said about Guy. Guy is my favourite unit, by far. Random: Guy, with A Support with Matthew, B with Priscilla, and use Nils's song that boost critical hit chance, give him a Wo Dao, and if he's got around 15 luck, he will get 117% Critical hit chance. Seriously, the game designers didn't cap it at 100, and this is a completely legit way to pass 100. |
He's my favorite character in the game as well, and he's still leagues above Heath.
And yeah, in FE6, I've had Rutger get past 100% Crt.
| QUOTE |
You haven't trained Heath. As he is underlevelled, in chapters 23-25, he should be getting about 5 levels or more per chapter. Killing promoted enemies, which isn't too hard, nets him about 70 EXP earlier on, so he is really easy to level. By the time he hits a Wyvern Lord, he becomes even easier to train, as he can fly into enemies without support of any kind. |
I have trained Heath, in HHM, and unranked (So I could baby him all I wanted). Oh, and he got Vaida A, Kent B. I gave him enormous benefits that simply won't be happening normally.
In Chapter 24 Linus, the beloved Pirates/Corsairs you want Heath to kill are at level 10. At base level, Heath really isn't gaining more experience than other characters. :/
He can't fight promoted enemies at all without being destroyed, so you either have to weaken them near death (Babying, less efficient), which is a nail against Heath.
| QUOTE |
Cog of Destiny, Heath is actually amazing. Throw him one Talisman, and he can take out the entire section of Monks and whatnot in the middle of the map. Javelins 1 hit them, and the monks do surprisingly little damage. They have low Magic power. I threw Farina in there for a turn when heath needed a heal (after 4 turns of being attacked by magic), and she JUST survived 1 turn. They were both 20/10 at the time. |
So, Heath needs yet another stat booster just to be used in Cog of Destiny. That's not amazing. That's pathetic. Oh, and he's somehow level 20/10. You're using too much personal experience, here.
Also, Heath still has no chance against the Druids, the Sages, and especially the Valks.
| QUOTE |
You are still just theorising about how difficult it would be to train Heath. Its significantly easier than Florina. |
Except I have used Heath. :/
Florina actually has a very easy time gaining levels. Lyn's Mode is a complete joke, especially since Brigands get largely phased out after Florina joins, replaced by easy Mercenaries and Soldiers. At rejoin, Florina already has some levels from Lyn's mode, and becomes a regular-performing character.
Heath requires enormous favortism just to catch up.
| QUOTE |
And still, if you think you should just give anyone the Afa's Drops, that is incredibly bad strategy. Hell, why not just give them to Athos. It'd have he same effect. NOT anyone can benefit from increased growths to the extent that someone like Heath, Canas, Dart, or others like them do. For the maximum effect, they need to be used on someone who is a) low levelled, preferably under level 15, unpromoted b ) WOULD NOT NORMALLY MAX THE STATS. Florina is likely to cap several of her stats anyway, so the Afa's drops would, in the long run, have no effect on those stats. Heath isn't likely to cap anything without them, but the maths shows what I said above. |
There isn't a 'maximum' use out of Afa's Drops. It doesn't make a big difference in the long-run, and capped stats typically don't come in play for any character until 20/15 or 20/20 (So end-game, and few characters are reaching 20/20 anyways). Afa's Drops remain a non-argument.
| QUOTE |
I'm not going to bother debating, at least about Heath, any more, until you have tried him out, with the hard mode bonus, with the affinity bonus (even if it is as you say, and doesn't increase growths), and with the Afa's drops. It all adds up. |
I've used Heath before, multiple times in fact. The affinity bonus is a rumor that has been debunked for years (Read this for everything the Tactician changes), Afa's Drops don't produce a significant effect on his averages.
Also, if a character needs favortism, multiple stat boosters, and a bonus that doesn't exist, then that means they aren't good. That's actually a detriment, since they require the player to emphasize the character in order to make them equivilant to the other characters.
Overall, Heath requires a lot of input for comparatively lower output than other characters. He's a detriment, and not a benefit.
#46
ablon08
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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:55 AM
a) Train him WITH afa's drops
strategise properly in Cog of Destiny, he can handle half of the map
c) you get about 3 or 4 Talisan's through the game. Where else are you going to give them to. He can still handle it without the talisman, but then you may need to waste a few uses of the Psychic staff
d) you underestimate the effects of the Afa's drops, when used properly
e) I forget, I had another point.
strategise properly in Cog of Destiny, he can handle half of the mapc) you get about 3 or 4 Talisan's through the game. Where else are you going to give them to. He can still handle it without the talisman, but then you may need to waste a few uses of the Psychic staff
d) you underestimate the effects of the Afa's drops, when used properly
e) I forget, I had another point.
#47
Swordsalmon
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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:05 AM
| QUOTE (ablon08 @ Jan 31 2011, 08:55 PM) |
| a) Train him WITH afa's drops strategise properly in Cog of Destiny, he can handle half of the map c) you get about 3 or 4 Talisan's through the game. Where else are you going to give them to. He can still handle it without the talisman, but then you may need to waste a few uses of the Psychic staff d) you underestimate the effects of the Afa's drops, when used properly e) I forget, I had another point. |
Ultimately, personal experience doesn't matter. Afa's Drops only marginally increase Heath's averages, to the point that they don't matter much. :/
By 'strategizing properly', you mean give him a second stat booster and throw him at a bunch of pansy Monks that just about everyone can one-shot already?
The Talismans could be given to a far better character with low Resistance, like Raven or Lowen. Or preferably, just keep them and keep my Funds rank high.
They increase growths by 5%. If anything, I overestimated their value a few days back.
Also, I will say that I did underestimate Heath quite a bit. He's not the worst character in the game, but definitely not very good. At least he's good at transporting other characters around.
#48
ablon08
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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:33 AM
By strategising properly, I mean giving the items to the people who benefit from them the most.
And if he can handle it, he can do it. Throw him anywhere if he is good enough. More kills, less turns. Enables you to finish the chapter early.
I also try to use Stat-up items as they come generally. I don't care enough about the "funds", and if you hoard them, and use them at the end, they will only be useful for 1 chapter.
Also, I hate Raven and Lowen. Raven gets HORRID luck, and I've had him get at 20/20 1 Res. I don't think +2 is gonna make any difference.
Lowen....I just don't like his portrait/personality. He isn't a BAD unit as such, but I gain no enjoyment from using him.
Oswin is a bad unit, but he is fun to use. I'd prefer to train Oswin (who is actually useful, if not good) than Lowen, who annoys me.
And if he can handle it, he can do it. Throw him anywhere if he is good enough. More kills, less turns. Enables you to finish the chapter early.
I also try to use Stat-up items as they come generally. I don't care enough about the "funds", and if you hoard them, and use them at the end, they will only be useful for 1 chapter.
Also, I hate Raven and Lowen. Raven gets HORRID luck, and I've had him get at 20/20 1 Res. I don't think +2 is gonna make any difference.
Lowen....I just don't like his portrait/personality. He isn't a BAD unit as such, but I gain no enjoyment from using him.
Oswin is a bad unit, but he is fun to use. I'd prefer to train Oswin (who is actually useful, if not good) than Lowen, who annoys me.
#49
Swordsalmon
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Posted 01 February 2011 - 10:42 PM
Personal experience doesn't matter in a debate. :/
Also, Raven having bad Luck isn't much of a problem... at all. Luck's a pretty worthless stat, all-in-all.
Also, Raven having bad Luck isn't much of a problem... at all. Luck's a pretty worthless stat, all-in-all.
#50
ablon08
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Posted 02 February 2011 - 07:05 AM
And we disagree again.
Luck is an extremely important stat.
It gives Avoid, Hit, and some Crit.
Avoid is very necessary. Units with low luck tend to get hit a lot.
Ever wonder why the final chapter is easy? All the enemies have extremely low luck.
Lloyd would be the strongest unit in the game if he had about 15 Luck.
Anyway, thats a discussion for a different topic. I don't want to get into any more debates, just suffice to say i play unconventionally.
Luck is an extremely important stat.
It gives Avoid, Hit, and some Crit.
Avoid is very necessary. Units with low luck tend to get hit a lot.
Ever wonder why the final chapter is easy? All the enemies have extremely low luck.
Lloyd would be the strongest unit in the game if he had about 15 Luck.
Anyway, thats a discussion for a different topic. I don't want to get into any more debates, just suffice to say i play unconventionally.
#51
Bobryk
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Posted 02 February 2011 - 03:43 PM
I'd say Luck is an important stat in every FE besides Fe10. In Fe10 it just seems useless because of how Biorhythm works.
#52
Swordsalmon
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Posted 02 February 2011 - 04:27 PM
| QUOTE |
And we disagree again. Luck is an extremely important stat. It gives Avoid, Hit, and some Crit. Avoid is very necessary. Units with low luck tend to get hit a lot. Ever wonder why the final chapter is easy? All the enemies have extremely low luck. Lloyd would be the strongest unit in the game if he had about 15 Luck. Anyway, thats a discussion for a different topic. I don't want to get into any more debates, just suffice to say i play unconventionally. |
Every point of Luck gives .5 Hit, 1 Avoid, and 1 Critical Avoid rate. Critical Avoid is pointless because very few enemies have high Critical anyways and the Hit bonus is insignificant. The only real benefit comes from the extra Avoid. Speed and supports do a lot more for a character to gain Avoid.
Also, Raven gets a fast Lucius support. Completely negates his defensive problems.
#53
ablon08
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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:09 AM
| QUOTE |
| Also, Raven gets a fast Lucius support. Completely negates his defensive problems. |
Lucius has no Luck, Defence or HP.
While he can kill enemies, he is killed just as easily.
And an A support with lucius still doesn't help Raven enough.
I stay away from Heroes in FE7. Gerik, Dieck and Oujay were quite good, but Raven just doesn't work that well for me.
And for me, the biggest asset of luck is avoid.
You NEED avoid, and losing out on 20 or so avoid because you have low luck is just not acceptable, especially for units with low defence.
Raven is also probably the unit most vulnerable to Sleep and Berserk staves in FE7.Seeing as he can't dodge things while asleep, as he has no luck, he provides no help in chapters Genesis, Cog of Destiny, and Sands of Time, where his speed and power would REALLY come in handy.
I always opt to train Guy as my main non-lord swordsman. I normally like to have a sword user, a lance user, an axe user, a bow user, Lords, and 2 staff users, one of which can fight. Pent normally becomes the sole-staff user, and Serra or Priscilla becomes the fighter/healer.
Oh, and if I use Guy as the swordsman (which 99% of the time, I do), Matthew is also used. e is not a bad unit (with a bit of luck), but mostly the A support between Matthew and Guy makes them an amazing combination. Even when Matthew is unpromoted, Matthew and Guy can duo stuff like FourFanged Offence, Pale Flower of Darkness...etc
I also like to train the Lords in their secondary weapons where possible. Eliwood benefits from the power of Lances, Hector benefits from the accuracy of Swords, and I just like bows.
#54
Swordsalmon
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Posted 03 February 2011 - 01:44 AM
| QUOTE |
Lucius has no Luck, Defence or HP. While he can kill enemies, he is killed just as easily. And an A support with lucius still doesn't help Raven enough. I stay away from Heroes in FE7. Gerik, Dieck and Oujay were quite good, but Raven just doesn't work that well for me. And for me, the biggest asset of luck is avoid. You NEED avoid, and losing out on 20 or so avoid because you have low luck is just not acceptable, especially for units with low defence. Raven is also probably the unit most vulnerable to Sleep and Berserk staves in FE7.Seeing as he can't dodge things while asleep, as he has no luck, he provides no help in chapters Genesis, Cog of Destiny, and Sands of Time, where his speed and power would REALLY come in handy. I always opt to train Guy as my main non-lord swordsman. I normally like to have a sword user, a lance user, an axe user, a bow user, Lords, and 2 staff users, one of which can fight. Pent normally becomes the sole-staff user, and Serra or Priscilla becomes the fighter/healer. Oh, and if I use Guy as the swordsman (which 99% of the time, I do), Matthew is also used. e is not a bad unit (with a bit of luck), but mostly the A support between Matthew and Guy makes them an amazing combination. Even when Matthew is unpromoted, Matthew and Guy can duo stuff like FourFanged Offence, Pale Flower of Darkness...etc I also like to train the Lords in their secondary weapons where possible. Eliwood benefits from the power of Lances, Hector benefits from the accuracy of Swords, and I just like bows. |
LuciusxRaven A is fast and nets both of them +3 Def/Res and +15% Critical Avoid. Their low Luck stats become a nonfactor, and Lucius becomes a little more durable.
So... Oujay is good, but not Raven... What.
Raven has the best offense from joining, barring possibly Marcus. He's one-rounding virutally everything, and after promotion is one-rounding everything at range with Hand Axes. Aside from a little fragility at the beginning (Which is overstated considering Raven's base 29 HP), Raven is a complete monster.
Raven's base Avoid is 32%. That's not bad at all. At level 20/1, his Avoid is 53%, with 45 HP, 12 Defense, and 6 Resistance. With Lucius A, they increase to 60% Avoid, 15 Defense, and 9 Resistance. He's not having troubles with durability.
Sleep and Berserk are rare enough to be virtual nonfactors. Also, Lucius/Other Healers wants to use Restore or Barrier to help the EXP rank...
Matthew can't do jack squat once he reaches his level cap. He's basically around at this point just to do thief work and support Guy. Matthew's durability at level 20 is 32 HP, 58% Avoid, 8 Defense, and 4 Resistance with Guy A. That's not exactly stats you want to be throwing straight into the middle of enemies. :/
#55
ablon08
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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:21 PM
I'm not going to argue anymore. I'm not the only one who counts luck as a very important stat. The experience can go to someone better than Raven.
And with the A support, Matthew's avoid jumps to about 70, as a thief.
As an assassin, much higher.
As a theif, he can hold his own against anyone, has 6 movement, so he can jump from terrain boost to terrain boost in most chapters, can steal, open chests, and survive when surrounded by 4 enemies. On top of that, he makes Guy pretty much invincible.
- good example.
Oh, and don't compare anyone to Marcus. If you train Dorcas 4 levels in Lyn's mode, he will be better than marcus.
By chapter 14, Eliwood should be a lot better than Marcus. Aside from being an experience hog, the only thing he is good for is being a disarmed bait, and village rescuer, on account of his movement. Even if the point is he can kill enemies, by the time you get Raven, Hector should be doing a better job of it, and getting better growths. When promoted, they use the same weapons, but one of them has good defence, as well as offence, and respectable luck, and one just has speed.
Sleep should be a large factor. Raven, and any other excessively low res unit becomes a liability in about 5 chapters. Even with the support, he isn't going to dodge it. If he takes a hit from Bolting or Purge, he needs immediate healing. From 2, he is dead. Average enemy sage will have over 40% chance of landing a Bolting on Raven, so taking 2 consecutive hits wouldn't exactly be unlikely.
And don't even talk about Limstella.
And with that, I'm ignoring this thread.
And with the A support, Matthew's avoid jumps to about 70, as a thief.
As an assassin, much higher.
As a theif, he can hold his own against anyone, has 6 movement, so he can jump from terrain boost to terrain boost in most chapters, can steal, open chests, and survive when surrounded by 4 enemies. On top of that, he makes Guy pretty much invincible.
- good example.
Oh, and don't compare anyone to Marcus. If you train Dorcas 4 levels in Lyn's mode, he will be better than marcus.
By chapter 14, Eliwood should be a lot better than Marcus. Aside from being an experience hog, the only thing he is good for is being a disarmed bait, and village rescuer, on account of his movement. Even if the point is he can kill enemies, by the time you get Raven, Hector should be doing a better job of it, and getting better growths. When promoted, they use the same weapons, but one of them has good defence, as well as offence, and respectable luck, and one just has speed.
Sleep should be a large factor. Raven, and any other excessively low res unit becomes a liability in about 5 chapters. Even with the support, he isn't going to dodge it. If he takes a hit from Bolting or Purge, he needs immediate healing. From 2, he is dead. Average enemy sage will have over 40% chance of landing a Bolting on Raven, so taking 2 consecutive hits wouldn't exactly be unlikely.
And don't even talk about Limstella.
And with that, I'm ignoring this thread.
#56
Swordsalmon
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Posted 04 February 2011 - 03:55 AM
| QUOTE |
I'm not going to argue anymore. I'm not the only one who counts luck as a very important stat. The experience can go to someone better than Raven. And with the A support, Matthew's avoid jumps to about 70, as a thief. As an assassin, much higher. As a theif, he can hold his own against anyone, has 6 movement, so he can jump from terrain boost to terrain boost in most chapters, can steal, open chests, and survive when surrounded by 4 enemies. On top of that, he makes Guy pretty much invincible. - good example. Oh, and don't compare anyone to Marcus. If you train Dorcas 4 levels in Lyn's mode, he will be better than marcus. By chapter 14, Eliwood should be a lot better than Marcus. Aside from being an experience hog, the only thing he is good for is being a disarmed bait, and village rescuer, on account of his movement. Even if the point is he can kill enemies, by the time you get Raven, Hector should be doing a better job of it, and getting better growths. When promoted, they use the same weapons, but one of them has good defence, as well as offence, and respectable luck, and one just has speed. Sleep should be a large factor. Raven, and any other excessively low res unit becomes a liability in about 5 chapters. Even with the support, he isn't going to dodge it. If he takes a hit from Bolting or Purge, he needs immediate healing. From 2, he is dead. Average enemy sage will have over 40% chance of landing a Bolting on Raven, so taking 2 consecutive hits wouldn't exactly be unlikely. And don't even talk about Limstella. And with that, I'm ignoring this thread. |
Speed gives +1 AS and +2% Avoid. Skill gives +2% Hit. In comparison, Luck gives +1% Hit and +.5% Avoid. Luck gives the least benefit per point. Luck is far less important than any other stat.
I calculated Matthew's Avoid with Guy A; it's 58%. Also, making Matthew an Assassin is pointless, because it destroys Funds and still barely improves his offensive or defensive abilities.
The video is wholly personal experience. It doesn't help your argument.
Matthew is a good fighter early on. He just can't compete offensively later on and is better off using his Thief utility.
Contrary to popular belief, Marcus is a beast. Besides one-rounding everything for the first several chapters, his stat deficiencies are offset by having a major level advantage, access to some really good supports (Lowen A, Eliwood B gives +2 Atk, +3 Def and +25% Avoid), and access to virtually every good weapon in the game. Marcus also is the best candidate for the Brave Axe, considering that most Axe-users get outclassed fairly quickly and Oswin doesn't have a good enough rank to use it. Marcus is incredible.
Marcus doesn't eat experience. Heck, you can actually have him rescue someone worthless like Rebecca and have him cripple most enemies for others to kill. This benefits both Experience and the other characters. No one else can do this as efficiently as Marcus.
Raven is always killing enemies better than Hector is, mainly due to an existant Speed stat.
The only time Sleep and Beserk become an issue is in Cog of Destiny. However, both lose accuracy at range, and Raven has supports to help his Resistance. A level 20/5 Raven w/ Lucius A has 10 Resistance; in comparison, level 20/10 Guy w/ Matthew A has 9 Resistance.
Let's say an enemy Sage has 40% Hit on Raven. It actually turns into 32.4% True Hit, so Raven is pretty likely to avoid the attack.
Siege tomes and Sleep are extremely rare, and Raven still has a decent chance against them.
EDIT: I kind of find is funny that you rail against Raven for having low Resistance, when Heath actually has lower Resistance.
#57
Rujio
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Posted 04 February 2011 - 05:16 AM
| QUOTE (ablon08 @ Feb 3 2011, 08:21 AM) |
Oh, and don't compare anyone to Marcus. If you train Dorcas 4 levels in Lyn's mode, he will be better than marcus. By chapter 14, Eliwood should be a lot better than Marcus. Aside from being an experience hog, the only thing he is good for is being a disarmed bait, and village rescuer, on account of his movement. Even if the point is he can kill enemies, by the time you get Raven, Hector should be doing a better job of it, and getting better growths. When promoted, they use the same weapons, but one of them has good defence, as well as offence, and respectable luck, and one just has speed. |
Uh... 7/0 Dorcas vs. Base Marcus. Marcus has 2 MOV, weapon levels, WTC, 5.6 STR, 6.4 SKL, 4.2 SPD, 3.4 LUK, 6 DEF, 7.4 RES. Dorcas has 2.2 HP. Care to explain how Dorcas wins? Hell, even if Dorcas gets every single stat on every single level up, Marcus wins every area other than HP by a considerable amount. Eliwood in chapter 14? 20/0 Eliwood is still worse than base Marcus looking at straight stats, never mind weapon triangle, 1-2 range, or movement.
BUT LATE GAME. A: Marcus is fully usable late game. More usable than quite a few units earlygame, in fact. B: Earlygame is a lot harder. The positive impact on the earlygame is enormous while the negative impact on the lategame (because so many people are so ridiculous anyways) is negligible.
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