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Do you want the Avatar to stay?


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19 replies to this topic

#1 Cero

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 05:30 PM

So after seeing how IS dealt with creating characters in the past two games, do you want the avatar to stay?

Gameplay wise I am fine with the avatar staying since they are pretty much a guaranteed to be good unit.

Now story wise I think the avatar should be completely absent from the story. The avatar is pretty much plot holes inconsistencies the character (FE13) or worsened/lessened the quality of scenes by being shoved into them (FE12).

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#2 Mercurius

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:05 PM

I'm always the sort of person that prefers it when we get to have our own personalized character but I don't really mind if it only exists for gameplay purposes(though the reverse, where the character has no gameplay like in FE7, is bleh. Not that you can really customize that one to any meaningful extent though)
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The avatar is pretty much plot holes inconsistencies the character (FE13)

I had to stare at this for like 3 minutes straight to find out that it wasn't mere grammar failure...

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#3 Rujio

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 03:00 AM

I haven't liked any of the avatar type characters from a story perspective, and I don't think having some super-unit available the whole game doesn't appeal to me too much, either. I'd rather see the system scrapped.
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#4 Fire Blazer

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 03:18 AM

I think the next one should step away from it and go for a less typical Fire Emblem character in terms of personality. That's what most people seem to be asking for if anything, a more plot-oriented/deep game as opposed to one based upon relations like FE12 and especially FE13 were. With the Avatar the personality has to be generic to some extent and there's other flaws and it can in fact hold the story back. It also does quite a bit of good but I think we've seen that good played out pretty well in Awakening and they can't expect it to have the same charm the 2nd (arguably the 3rd or even 4th though not to the same extent...) time.

In short, make FE14 Avatar-less and take a totally different approach but maybe bring it back in FE15

OR if they wanted to please everyone, have some sort of extra mode/option where you could get the benefits of customizing your own character but they wouldn't affect the story etc., they'd just be a member of the army or some option for the post-game or something as opposed to one of the most important or recognizable elements of the game

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#5 Bobryk

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 03:21 AM

If they can find a way to make it work without the unit being A: Overpowered to the point that they can solo the game, which both avatars can do (except Fe12 lunatic) and B: story insertion for the sake of being there (Fe12 avatar is famous for butting in to every conversation).

Fe13's avatar was okay for story purposes since his/her premise was to be a main character, but having the player's own character will detract from other main characters no matter what, tbh. I mean, the player would usually favor his or her own unit rather than the units supplied in game.

I'm talking in circles but TL;DR it'd be pretty hard to make a self-insert character work in a FE game in the future. I like the concept, though.

Could always go with the omnipresent tactician from Fe7, though.
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#6 Mercurius

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 04:34 AM

someone's solo'd FE13 Lunatic with the avatar?

...without relying on DLC grinding?

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#7 kirant

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 04:51 AM

QUOTE (Tenebrae Candidae @ Apr 22 2014, 09:34 PM)
someone's solo'd FE13 Lunatic with the avatar?

...without relying on DLC grinding?

Not terribly difficult after the first few chapters - Avatar tends to run away in stats due to Veteran.

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#8 Mercurius

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:10 AM

Probably not all that relevant to the topic, but I just discovered that Sword Art Online: Hollow Fragment (which is coming to the US) will allow you to customize and rename the existing main character of the entire series.

Just mentioning that cause it got me thinking about how that would be if it was in Fire Emblem, think editing Marth's clothes and hair color/style to your liking, and I found it really unpleasant to think about for some weird reason, even though I was mostly fine with reclassing in FE13(aside from the color issues) and FE12, something many others were bothered about the inclusion of. This is despite how i've already edited two existent Fire Emblem characters (one of them to his Awakening design which deviated enough to disturb many Fire Emblem fans as well, and the other being genderswapped) so I really don't understand why this feels so...do not want to me.

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#9 Fire Blazer

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:30 PM

lol it's bad, it makes the character more generic amongst other things

you've kinda gotta pick your route in a way since with custom character creation you can't have everything

in one you can't really have a lovable main character with an excellent plot but in the other you can't really have that feeling of player involvement/the general appeal of character creation/customization

Awakening tried to meet people in the middle and well honestly, most people loved it but they didn't please the end that really didn't want anything to do with the character creation thing

I mean, even if they did what I suggested and made the custom character irrelevant to the plot, it'd just upset the group of people that wants said custom character to feel relevant

tl;dr can't please everyone

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#10 Northwind

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 05:33 AM

Kind of.

I like the idea of the Avatar more then most Fire Emblem purists do, but there are two problems with the character in terms of balance. The character is ridiculously easy to break the game with and they create a clutter in the plot, dragging it away from the main lord character. Luckily, both these things can be fixed.

For the former, I'd like to see the Avatar's power reigned in by simply limiting their ability to reclass/upgrade/gain skills based on player input at the start of the game. Put them on the same level as everyone else, but leave the selection of classes up to the player. I think an Avatar in Fire Emblem, like most custom made units, is guaranteed to be good barring incompetence/sabotage on the player's part, but it shouldn't be easy to do it at first, so skills like Veteran should be cut or at least gotten later in the game. Making class choice tied into character creation would also make each Avatar feel more unique, which can never hurt.

The solution to the later is quite a bit more radical. The best way to keep the Avatar in the plot without them butting heads for screen-time with the Lord character is to simply make them the Lord. This way you'd have the narrative and the player both focused on the same character, preventing clutter.

Now, that being said, it'd be tricky to do the above without making the character overly generic, even by Fire Emblem Lord standards. This clashes with the desires of several people here who want to see in terms of plot. That being said, the success and popularity of the Avatar system in Awakening makes me really doubtful that they'd scrap it, no matter how much it chafes some veterans, so I think the most realistic things we can hope for are more balance in terms of gameplay and a story that revolves around them as the main character completely.

#11 Fire Blazer

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 06:00 AM

That's actually pretty smart, and I agree that the solution to the latter thing is a bit more radical but depending on the execution it could work.

We actually just discussed the role of the avatar in the plot and how it kind of detracts from it (albeit somewhat indirectly) in the latest podcast at http://www.feshrine....isodes/season3/ -- if you have a chance you should listen haha, it's a similar topic to what you mentioned.

Overall I think the role of the avatar as a member of the plot should be lessened to the point that it doesn't interfere or be approached totally differently; right now it's just kind of a "meh" plot that doesn't really impress with the storytelling or anything and gets more generic later on, and I don't think increasing his role when he is a "custom character" would work very well--it's just one of things where the development of characters and focus on plot kinda needs to be more about the other characters with the main character having a different role than feeling like a "3rd-person character who you customized".

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#12 Northwind

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 02:35 PM

Thanks, I'll give that a listen after work.

And I can agree with what you said. The idea of the Avatar isn't bad by any means, but it should be approached differently in the future from both a gameplay and a story perspective. FE13's one wasn't all that bad, but they suffered badly from tabula-rasa syndrome and being part of a rather unwieldy triumvirate with Chrom and Lucina.

That was probably the biggest issue I had with Awakening's plot. They tried to mash together both a traditional Fire Emblem style plot and a Western RPG style character customization system and it wound up being the biggest weight on the plot. You can have one (A Fire Emblem/Final Fantasy Tactics style game where you take control of a established lead through a linear story) or the other (an Elder Scrolls/Bioware type game where the lead is customizable and the story is based on each individual players actions and interests), but both at the same time is nigh impossible barring the writer having achieved some type of enlightenment.

Going off on this, it's like if Mass Effect had you make Shepard and then planted you into a story where Ashley and Garrus were the main characters but you were still the most important person in the game, somehow. If you're going to do a character creation system in a plot heavy game like Fire Emblem, that character should damn well be the most important person in the story so that the narrative can revolve around them with the same amount of focus that the audience puts into the character. Otherwise, you're better off just eliminating the player avatar and telling a good story rather then throwing in a mechanic that throws things off.

#13 Nephinel

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:45 PM

The My Unit feature was a fun little gimmick for the last two games, but I'm not too sure I want it to return for the next game. If they bring it back for the next game I'd want it to be more than just a way to make some overpowered custom unit. I have a few ideas, but they would require the basic FE game structure (in terms of story and plot) to be radically altered.

#14 Fire Blazer

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:25 PM

The thing with radically changing FE is that there isn't a lot else like it

like with FE games only coming out once every so often I can't really get my "Fire Emblem" fix >__>;

it'd be cool if we had like a mainstream FE game and then a spin-off and even if the spin-off is more popular w/e

but like all we have since Awakening is a crossover with practically no info, no new main game, no spin-off, not even a remake >_>;

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#15 Nephinel

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 05:09 PM

wow

 

I posted in this thread over a year ago, and seeing how Fire Emblem Fates turned out with its Avatar unit

 

I weep :(



#16 Cero

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 05:39 PM

All I can do is just give an exasperated sigh.


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#17 kirant

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 05:33 PM

How bad is it?  I'm honestly not reading anything about the game (for fear of spoilers) until I get it.


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#18 Knight of Argentum

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 06:56 PM

I pretty much agree with Cero. Guaranteed good unit, except Avatars in FE seem to have a tendency to destroy everything they touch.



#19 Cero

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 05:06 AM

A great unit (not broken though) with shitty character.


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#20 Holy Kensai

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 01:36 AM

They should Warriors it up, but specialized.

Aka, you have story mode with no CAW/my unit, and an alternate mode where you go through the story/maps with a crew of fully CAW/my units. That way those who like customized characters could make their whole crew. Just make it so you can only have one lord tier growth, and so forth to create balance and maintain difficulty. Even make it so you can have all shitty growth to create an extra level of hard.


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