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@  Fire Blazer : (06 December 2017 - 07:16 PM) if the VA strike helped bring in a bit more diversity, then I suppose that's a good thing, lol
@  kirant : (29 November 2017 - 08:07 PM) What I'm trying to get at is that the variety might have been caused by necessity by developers. As much as I was always a fan, I don't think some certain VAs that I thought had great range (ex - Cherami Leigh, DC Douglas) would have gotten their bigger roles without such a strike.
@  kirant : (29 November 2017 - 08:05 PM) I think it's mostly because of a VA strike. A bunch have agreed to not work with major game creators (until an agreement was reached early November this year). This included some extremely prominent VAs (ex - Jennifer Hale).
@  Fire Blazer : (29 November 2017 - 03:36 PM) I feel like the variety is increasing a little bit though, if only because with voice acting becoming more common and people recognizing voices more, there's a little bit of benefit to getting some different voices, perhaps
@  Fire Blazer : (29 November 2017 - 03:34 PM) lol yeah there are some really prominent VOs that will get a lot of roles, and often times big ones
@  xcrash1998 : (27 November 2017 - 05:59 PM) Oh, ok fine. You can ignore the post
@  xcrash1998 : (27 November 2017 - 05:58 PM) Nope was an error on my end
@  kirant : (26 November 2017 - 10:32 PM) Troy Baker takes an insane number of roles. Him, Matt Mercer, and Laura Bailey all seem to be plastered all over games.
@  xcrash1998 : (26 November 2017 - 07:27 PM) Fire Blazer Yeah you are right. Just depends on how far it goes but then there is the question on what is to far or still ok.
@  Idiot : (26 November 2017 - 05:26 AM) There was a game I recently played where Troy Baker did the voice for like 4 different character. That dude is in everything.
@  Mig64 : (25 November 2017 - 05:57 AM) So I was watching the character intros for Fire Emblem Warriors, and I have to say Gharnef should've been voiced by Troy Baker.
https://tinyurl.com/TroyBakerGuldan
@  Fire Blazer : (24 November 2017 - 01:47 PM) and I think it'll stay this way for a bit. do you not like it? any alternatives that don't compromise the benefits of DLC? (e.g. Smash 4 DLC characters; would you rather delay the game for more characters, just so that they aren't released as DLC instead?)
@  Fire Blazer : (24 November 2017 - 01:46 PM) and you can see how they do their mobile games, so... yeah, Nintendo was a bit late to do it, but they eventually did join the other big companies with the new way of selling games and such
@  Fire Blazer : (24 November 2017 - 01:46 PM) uh, idk. I'm not against DLC as a whole, I just want it to be executed well. which to me mainly means, the original game should be a full experience, and any DLC should be extras and adequately priced; if you're selling a single costume for $1, or a single new gameplay map for $3, that kinda thing, that's way overpriced IMO.
@  xcrash1998 : (23 November 2017 - 08:12 PM) I mean in terms of how they sell their games and then there are DLC's and every thing. Nintendo is clearly going into that kind of direction. (Actually is doing that already). Not that I am against them trying to keep profit high to stay in the business but there needs to be a better way.
@  xcrash1998 : (23 November 2017 - 08:09 PM) How do you think will nintendo change in the future
@  Fire Blazer : (13 November 2017 - 08:55 PM) lol, perhaps
@  kirant : (13 November 2017 - 07:19 PM) I assume nostalgia hits as soon as we get old enough to "fall out" of things.
@  Rujio : (13 November 2017 - 03:57 PM) aren't we supposed to be too young for nostalgia or something?
@  Fire Blazer : (13 November 2017 - 06:08 AM) yet it feels bad since somewhere in my heart I miss all that

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Are you uncomfortable playing Fire Emblem Fates?


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#1 Mercurius

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 09:09 AM

The reasons may be more because of us than the game. I'm not saying this as "mind over matter" but rather, should I say, the reverse. The subconscious is taking over the conscious.

 

Before you ask for a tl;dr (and I will try to keep this relatively short) I want to point out that, by the time you find yourself wanting one, you should already realize the point that's being made.

 

Now then, think about some things. Do you have a backlog of entertainment? Do you pile up browser bookmarks like there's no tommorow? Did you recently buy the HD re-release of a trilogy of games?

 

You know that you have these for a purpose, but at the same time, you likely aren't getting much use out of them anytime soon.

 

The last example in particular is relevant. I bought Metal Gear Solid HD Collection (2 games) quite a while ago, and cleared MGS3 throughout several, spread out sessions. As for MGS2? Haven't even started it up.

 

Now here comes Fire Emblem Fates with two games released at once and one more released shortly thereafter (if you didn't buy the Special Edition.) By the time you're done with one, you probably don't feel particularly enthusiastic to try the next one in line immediately- you just finished a whole game, you want to take a break, and you aren't particularly obligated to do the two other routes, it's not like it ends off at a major cliffhanger and starts where that left off in the other mode. You lose momentum.

 

For us that have played Fire Emblem games for a while now, building up that momentum even for the first run of the game we choose is relatively difficult. We are already familiar with Fire Emblem games, and we went out to buy another Fire Emblem game. However, the product we ended up getting is not one that operates as Fire Emblem traditionally does.

 

Think about how you approached Awakening. We already know about skills from previous Fire Emblem games. The pair up system usually doesn't really mean anything but stat boost + double attack + guards, basically becoming a matter of "It makes a unit stronger, that's all I need to know." Reclassing is something many of us got familiar with from the two games before it too. Child system? All you gotta do is grind out supports, yeah? This kind of stuff is all easy to take in. You more or less play the game like you do most other Fire Emblem games, sans gratuitous eugenics planning for pointlessly optimized characters. 

 

Then Fates comes and messes with all the weapons and the pair up system, even making enemies capable of using it. You have to approach it differently even if you play the easiest of the three games (unless you're on like normal mode or something and just go whatever), and to some level, you feel alienated, "Is this how a Fire Emblem game is supposed to be?" is subconsciously thought.

 

"The hell are these shield icons below the HP bars?" 

"Wait why does my mage suck so much against this lance wielder?! By the way, what were shuriken weak to again?"

"FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUU- I didn't realize that Wyvern Lord would bring a Sorcerer with him to tag team on me when one of them was out of range"

"HIT RATES ARE A LIE"

"Oh right, Dragon Veins were a thing"

"WTF is all this My Castle business?"
"BANDITS AREN'T IN THE FIRST CHAPTER?!"
etc. 

 

You went into the game underestimating it, feeling like your familiarity would let you smoothly cruise through the experience, and got overwhelmed instead.

 

Of course, this doesn't apply to the sorts who have been following game info and asking questions and the like before the game was actually released, but for those who do think they are familiar with a game, there's even less reason to go about reading a bunch of guides and whatnot instead of jumping in when you have the chance. It also doesn't apply as much to those who played one version long before the official English release and stuff, because they don't have a load to look at all at once.

 

And at worst, when it comes to the story, since it was essentially built up as one story with multiple routes, but was separated through different games, if you don't bother to go through all of them you're left knowing that you have went through the incomplete experience. You may feel that some kind of duty is left unfulfilled, but at the same time, you can't be assed to keep up the pace, because there was a finish line and it feels like you have crossed it (unless you're zac and you haven't even done your first run through yet.) Just like how games that are released within the same week or so have to compete for sales (because a lot of people are only going to buy one and forget the other), the Fire Emblem Fates games are competing with each other for your attention, and when it tries to take too much of your time at once, you feel more drained from obligation rather than being able to take it easy, and being able to take something easy is important when a big task you aren't particularly good at already is placed before you.

 

 

tl;dr : "It's too much, I don't want to bother."

 

In retrospect I think this might not apply to most the members that bother to come here but fuck I wrote it out already anyway so I might as well post it. I think it's just a reaction to kirant mentioning that Fates seems to be a game that didn't bring much to the franchise compared to Awakening.


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#2 kirant

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 07:01 AM

Before you ask for a tl;dr (and I will try to keep this relatively short) I want to point out that, by the time you find yourself wanting one, you should already realize the point that's being made.

I'd just like to point out myself that the term tl;dr is really a bit of a nonsensical term in my mind (just to pile onto how bad the term is) as there's no way to discern if it is too long for its subject matter before reading it.  And by the time you figure out of it's too long, you've already read it. 

 

Now then, think about some things. Do you have a backlog of entertainment? Do you pile up browser bookmarks like there's no tommorow? Did you recently buy the HD re-release of a trilogy of games?

Rhetorical questions, but yes, no, and no.

 

Now here comes Fire Emblem Fates with two games released at once and one more released shortly thereafter (if you didn't buy the Special Edition.) By the time you're done with one, you probably don't feel particularly enthusiastic to try the next one in line immediately- you just finished a whole game, you want to take a break, and you aren't particularly obligated to do the two other routes, it's not like it ends off at a major cliffhanger and starts where that left off in the other mode. You lose momentum.

 

For us that have played Fire Emblem games for a while now, building up that momentum even for the first run of the game we choose is relatively difficult. We are already familiar with Fire Emblem games, and we went out to buy another Fire Emblem game. However, the product we ended up getting is not one that operates as Fire Emblem traditionally does.

I think this might be a conclusion that you're extrapolating beyond yourself and one that might not be true - for example, I personally found after completing Persona Q (an incredible challenge at times as the game itself has some pointlessly loopy and silly maps by end game), I wanted to do another run.  The closeness of the two narratives, in this case, actually drew my interest far more than destroying my "momentum".  True, you use the term "probably", but it's a question of proportion that we speak of then and we'd need more individuals to weigh in.

 

Think about how you approached Awakening. We already know about skills from previous Fire Emblem games. The pair up system usually doesn't really mean anything but stat boost + double attack + guards, basically becoming a matter of "It makes a unit stronger, that's all I need to know." Reclassing is something many of us got familiar with from the two games before it too. Child system? All you gotta do is grind out supports, yeah? This kind of stuff is all easy to take in. You more or less play the game like you do most other Fire Emblem games, sans gratuitous eugenics planning for pointlessly optimized characters.

I'd say, at least as someone who came in without really touching the DS remakes (I think I did 8(?) chapters in the first remake), that reclassing was actually quite a big step.  That with the notions of optimization (and the necessary abuse of it in order to complete the hardest version of Apotheosis) were very different mind stretching challenges over the original.  The base game?  Unless it's high end difficulty (more about luck and memorization than actual performance)...a joke.  But there are elements here which kind of shone through for me.

 

That said, I've also probably put in 150 hours into Awakening.  Abut 50-60 probably just observing specific dialogue choices. 

 

Then Fates comes and messes with all the weapons and the pair up system, even making enemies capable of using it. You have to approach it differently even if you play the easiest of the three games (unless you're on like normal mode or something and just go whatever), and to some level, you feel alienated, "Is this how a Fire Emblem game is supposed to be?" is subconsciously thought.

 

"The hell are these shield icons below the HP bars?" 

"Wait why does my mage suck so much against this lance wielder?! By the way, what were shuriken weak to again?"

"FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUU- I didn't realize that Wyvern Lord would bring a Sorcerer with him to tag team on me when one of them was out of range"

"HIT RATES ARE A LIE"

"Oh right, Dragon Veins were a thing"

"WTF is all this My Castle business?"
"BANDITS AREN'T IN THE FIRST CHAPTER?!"
etc. 

 

You went into the game underestimating it, feeling like your familiarity would let you smoothly cruise through the experience, and got overwhelmed instead.

 

Of course, this doesn't apply to the sorts who have been following game info and asking questions and the like before the game was actually released, but for those who do think they are familiar with a game, there's even less reason to go about reading a bunch of guides and whatnot instead of jumping in when you have the chance. It also doesn't apply as much to those who played one version long before the official English release and stuff, because they don't have a load to look at all at once.

This really sounds like a different approach to the game as a whole...that the player approaches it with a sense of cockiness gets stomped on by mechanics they don't understand.  A good number of strategic and tactical players I find approach it from the opposite angle.  The XCOM community I found was heavily in this camp.  That is because, of course, the XCOM motto typically boils to "if you're complacent, you're in trouble".  That's because in that game, the AI likely will throw something new at you.  A new enemy, a new tactic...something's going to happen and it will ruin your day if you approach it without caution.  The game gives you little warning of how the mechanic works so you'll go through experimentation (as should be expected to).  You think you're safe?  Well, let's throw a melee unit at you and rip your throats out.  You like that wall as cover?  We'll just bulldoze it straight down and kill your favourite unit.  Think you're able to prevent damage by playing hide and seek?  We'll isolate and strangle them.  Treat them as your standard take cover and shoot enemies?  Well, let's just say it doesn't end well.

 

So I think it comes from a case of players walking in with a mindset of playing this just as another FE RPG entry.  Some players might come in, read the in-game descriptions, and formulate plan.  Others might just read it, assume "yeah, whatever", and proceed with the standard tactics.

 

As a result, I'm not sure I'd agree with the "newness" of these mechanics being a huge issue.

 

And at worst, when it comes to the story, since it was essentially built up as one story with multiple routes, but was separated through different games, if you don't bother to go through all of them you're left knowing that you have went through the incomplete experience. You may feel that some kind of duty is left unfulfilled, but at the same time, you can't be assed to keep up the pace, because there was a finish line and it feels like you have crossed it (unless you're zac and you haven't even done your first run through yet.) Just like how games that are released within the same week or so have to compete for sales (because a lot of people are only going to buy one and forget the other), the Fire Emblem Fates games are competing with each other for your attention, and when it tries to take too much of your time at once, you feel more drained from obligation rather than being able to take it easy, and being able to take something easy is important when a big task you aren't particularly good at already is placed before you.

(Hasn't even bothered doing step one yet: buy the damn game)

 

I would agree though in the sense that the nature of having two routes is an extensive game for many people and a few won't be interested enough to do both...or, god forbid, three runs in order to get everything.  And, as such, it's certainly possible that the lack of interest may stem from having to go through the game over and over and over.  I'm not sure I can really relate to that too heavily as I'm pretty dedicated in what I do...I've logged 100+ on every Danganronpa/Persona game I own without fail (grinding out some specific goals in a few of them),  I have no problem loving 999, a game where "finishing it" demanded playing the game over and over until you hit a specific set of routes.  XCOM gets worse and I think each entry has 250+ hours.  To say I'm bucking that trend you discuss a bit is an understatement.


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#3 Mercurius

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 08:51 AM

personally found after completing Persona Q (an incredible challenge at times as the game itself has some pointlessly loopy and silly maps by end game), I wanted to do another run. 

That is the same game you're talking about, though. Due to heightened familiarity, you either did not lose your momentum yet (depending on how long you went not playing it before doing another run, and from context, this seems to be a short amount of time) or will find it easier to build it back up anyway. (This is assuming Persona Q does not have some wildly divergent point where the content starts having a major difference once a certain decision is made.)

 

In the case of moving from say, Birthright to Conquest, while the issues of trying to get oneself more familiar with the new system the game presents are ironed out some more, most of the context where those mechanics will take place will be alien to what has been learned from the previous game.

 

I personally do many NG+ runs of a game, and played through Birthright twice liking the second run better than the first. In the second run, in spite of the conditions having changed (Hard Casual to Lunatic Classic) due to my overall familiarity with what the game is going to throw at me, and a willingness to do better with the new system than I had before, several parts of the game were actually easier to handle in spite of my levels throughout being more or less the same, and even in cases where I got screwed over in a way I didn't expect, it became easier to find the solution I should take next time than it was before.

 

The closeness of the two narratives, in this case, actually drew my interest far more than destroying my "momentum".  True, you use the term "probably", but it's a question of proportion that we speak of then and we'd need more individuals to weigh in.

Prior to the release, most people were hyped about the double (later revealed to be triple) narratives in Fates, but this is a matter of interest beforehand rather than interest after a taste of the experience.

 

A significant factor is just in the fact that they are being sold as three different products. By presenting them as different games and giving them their hefty price tags, this becomes a significant obstacle to momentum. I may have personally played through all three choices if they were actually one game without noticing as much of a disturbance to momentum, but since I have the choice to buy only one of the three, I just stuck with what I have and figured the experience wasn't amazing enough(at least, story-wise, anyway) to bother purchasing the other two. (although I might purchase Revelations at some much later point in time, when I just have a "I want a new Fire Emblem game" itch.)

 

This really sounds like a different approach to the game as a whole...that the player approaches it with a sense of cockiness gets stomped on by mechanics they don't understand.  A good number of strategic and tactical players I find approach it from the opposite angle.  The XCOM community I found was heavily in this camp.  That is because, of course, the XCOM motto typically boils to "if you're complacent, you're in trouble".  That's because in that game, the AI likely will throw something new at you.  A new enemy, a new tactic...something's going to happen and it will ruin your day if you approach it without caution.  The game gives you little warning of how the mechanic works so you'll go through experimentation (as should be expected to).  You think you're safe?  Well, let's throw a melee unit at you and rip your throats out.  You like that wall as cover?  We'll just bulldoze it straight down and kill your favourite unit.  Think you're able to prevent damage by playing hide and seek?  We'll isolate and strangle them.  Treat them as your standard take cover and shoot enemies?  Well, let's just say it doesn't end well.

Is that across separate games in the same series though?

This is mostly from a complacent mentality being formed through time with the Fire Emblem franchise in general. Fire Emblem players do not necessarily throw caution to the wind out of cockiness- but they may not understand how that caution should be exercised once the context changes. I had a massive shift of how to treat the player phase in Fates, for instance, because the lack of significantly durable units in my team with efficient 1-2 range weapons made counterattacking during the enemy phase far less rewarding. (Unless it is Ryouma, which is why he went to go take care of over half the map in chapter 27 of Birthright while almost everyone else was struggling to deal with the leftovers.)

 

It's kind of like how a Dark Souls player may do fairly fine with the way they play "Dark Souls" when going into Dark Souls II, but may have issues trying to use that mentality going into Bloodborne, even though that is basically considered a Dark Souls game. (Skimming this article should give an idea of what this means: https://www.primagam...ath-becomes-you )

 

As for reading the descriptions and forming plans, that usually doesn't go quite as well as one would want it to, mainly due to how it probably doesn't provide sufficient understanding of the mechanic, or doesn't make you remember the mechanic easily enough. I already knew how attack stances and guard stances worked in Fates before starting up the game, but the vast majority of the time, my old habit of playing Fire Emblem where the enemy phase seems more important than the player phase during my first run of Fates mostly made me ignore the attack stance. (It was only once I started having to use it to be safe in Lunatic that I started becoming less awkward about how I play the game.) Short-term judgments tend to cloud people's ideas of how to do something until they run into problems that force them to change the way they perform, since tunnel vision is perfectly acceptable when nothing in particular challenges it.

 

Awakening more or less didn't challenge my tunnel vision (and most others) and had an advantage of just being a modern FE game in itself for publicity, but I think Fates shaking up the fundamentals of the game makes a bigger difference for the series than Awakening, for better or worse when it comes to how someone familiar with Fire Emblem games in general will feel about their experience playing it.


I believe in judgment of humans through their judgment of fiction, for nothing else tells better of their disposition freed from apprehension.


#4 Blue Leafeon

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:09 PM


tl;dr : "It's too much, I don't want to bother."

 

The main thing for me is that a game really needs to have one of two things to feel enjoyable, and preferably a healthy balance of both:

1: Fun gameplay. (I do not call having almost all my units easily 2HKO'd and repeatedly getting hit reliably by 10-20% hit percentages "fun")

 

2: A good story. (I just finished making a topic about Revelation's issue.)

 

Fates has neither. I've already beaten the other two mediocre stories, and I can't be bothered with Revelation. Especially after the story so thoroughly broke my willing suspension of disbelief.


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#5 kirant

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 04:45 AM

That is the same game you're talking about, though. Due to heightened familiarity, you either did not lose your momentum yet (depending on how long you went not playing it before doing another run, and from context, this seems to be a short amount of time) or will find it easier to build it back up anyway. (This is assuming Persona Q does not have some wildly divergent point where the content starts having a major difference once a certain decision is made.)

 

Fair enough.  However, I do consider FE: Fates similar enough in content and system that I'd call it the same game.  The minor differences tactically (character, mission objectives) are fairly surface level changes to what I consider the root of the game (the mechanics).

 

Is that across separate games in the same series though?

Across games and across various series.  I think it's because those who typically post about the XCOM series are ardent fans and that such fans pick up the XCOM mentality fairly quick.  Failing to recognize that threat between different entries in the game results in the game likely punishing the player with death...whether it be of a decent unit or just a rookie (the games typically don't discriminate THAT much).  Fans, especially that of the harder XCOM difficulties, will just start applying this to other games...that something that is new or unrecognized becomes dangerous and I see many approach that with extreme caution.

 

This is mostly from a complacent mentality being formed through time with the Fire Emblem franchise in general. Fire Emblem players do not necessarily throw caution to the wind out of cockiness- but they may not understand how that caution should be exercised once the context changes. I had a massive shift of how to treat the player phase in Fates, for instance, because the lack of significantly durable units in my team with efficient 1-2 range weapons made counterattacking during the enemy phase far less rewarding. (Unless it is Ryouma, which is why he went to go take care of over half the map in chapter 27 of Birthright while almost everyone else was struggling to deal with the leftovers.)

Except you can calculate out the changes.  If you are aware of them, you can be aware from a mathematical perspective what damage each enemy is capable of.  You can figure out your worst case scenario, figure if your stone wall can stop all the attacks.  You can crunch the numbers and it'll tell you that you must adapt.  A player willing to learn the mechanics can adapt to them with enough time and effort into number crunching and fundamentally what the change means.  Habits can be hard to break but you can still end up breaking them.  So the failure in my mind must come from not understanding how the game changes.  It's similar to that physical/special split in Pokemon.  People took some time to understand what it actually meant to the game but once they did, it's not hard to see how something like Gyarados goes from "Good and useful but struggles due to typing" to "Excellent and multi-tooled". 

I'll be the first to admit that I love numbers.  I almost always keep FE in "Detailed" number mode because I love having to figure out if my attack will actually double and how much it'll deal.  But tactics can vary between games and FE Fates is no different...the mechanics shift and so will its optimal tactic.  And with some thought, they can find a tactic which works better if the old one is that useless.

 

Let's say your statements are correct: blink tanking is not viable.  This means that the concept of sending one-man army into the cloud of enemies (a tactic which works when the number of enemies is not a concern, as oppose to a regular tank which WILL eventually succumb to horrific attack numbers in the case all attacks do some damage) no longer works.  The game becomes more tactical and formation based to spread damage.  Additionally, a unit which can ORKO but not reliably survive will become more protected (ex - Mia from Path of Radiance) as they'll take out their opponent but free the square they were standing.  So you must shift the concept to a slower meat grinder formation where you can press our attack on your turn and reset for the next aggression thereby leaving your attack unit free from danger.

 

Heck, I see that in the way I mod Fire Emblem.  The runs I do almost always end up with a squad of enemies 3-4 units deep throwing multiple weapons while my generals/heroes block the corridor and I try to formulate a plan to wheel in a medic that can survive the turn/cart in the extra Elixir they need to survive a turn.  Open field battles become far more fun the for the same reason: the game encourages tough units in a game where speed almost always dominates. 

 

Basically...long story short: if you change the tactic in a game where the mechanics are laid wide open, a player who puts thought into how that tactic changes will understand that their old strategy, if not viable, must change.

 

It's kind of like how a Dark Souls player may do fairly fine with the way they play "Dark Souls" when going into Dark Souls II, but may have issues trying to use that mentality going into Bloodborne, even though that is basically considered a Dark Souls game. (Skimming this article should give an idea of what this means: https://www.primagam...ath-becomes-you )

I would qualify Dark Souls differently.  Fighting games and reflex games require that the player be capable of pressing buttons correctly.  Players of characters with wildly changing attack sets (I've heard this is the case for Voldo of Soul games as how he fights from lying on the ground to facing away to standing forward will always change) basically have to relearn a new character.

 

My inferences typically refer to a game where you have the time to run every scenario in your head and can determine the "optimal" option. 


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#6 Sorayai

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Posted 12 April 2016 - 03:48 AM

I was pretty eager to play the next game when I finished one, although at the same time I didn't want to burn through the games too fast because I want to enjoy them for a while. that said, I only have Revelations to play! Loving it though. I enjoy seeing how Fire Emblem evolves with each new installment. I hope to be playing FE games till I'm old!


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