Add some more hours to that, Blazer. (I don't have much to actually talk about when it comes to SMTxFE though. Not enough info.)
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I mentioned not challenging your stance mainly because it can be unusual to provide as much information as I did without trying to start an argument, like, if I already guessed you would know about these kinds of things, would there be much incentive to normally say that much about it? So it might make more intuitive sense if I didn't make the disclaimer to assume that I was unable to parse your statements properly, which would lead to a circle that involves re-explaining the same thing for no reason.
I'm probably one of the least reserved people here when it comes to potentially offending others, unintentionally or not.
That said June, your most recent post's commentary inspired an (unfortunately unlikely to ever come to fruition) idea for a very interesting game in me. It would be an MMORPG designed to fuse together the best of both worlds in WRPGs and JRPGs as they are now. Think of what the goals of these genres tend to be:
JRPG:
Set characters with significant personalities (enough for people to expect you to actually care about them anyway)
Character interaction
Spectacle
Narratively compelling battles
Involving as many menus as possible
WRPG:
Exploration
Expression
Agency (choices that affect an events' outcome...ideally)
Rich, almost overwhelming lore
I'll get back to you on immersion after I find out how it works
MMORPG:
Keeping players in the endless-by-design game
Creation of a virtual society (with a whole lot more measures for importance than "Amount of friends and likes")
Eternal balance (in a PvE context, MMORPGs are the only RPGs you can really rely on to ALWAYS make it difficult to curbstomp important enemies, although certain opponents lose their importance over time...)
Destroying the customer's grasp on reality
None of these are mutually exclusive. All three also share certain traits(basically whatever makes them all fall under the "RPG" label) and as it is MMORPGs already often try to incorporate elements of the other two. However, they are often really awkward about how they incorporate it, if they're trying to go for a JRPG feel and force you into having a specific identity as a certain character class, it just feels awkward when they keep referring to you like you're the only one of your kind, because in the actual game there are clones of you everywhere and most of you are using hilariously out of place names. And it kind of defeats the character's identity to some extent if they let you customize them too much (which they usually do.)
If they're trying to go for the WRPG feel (which I feel like is more of an unintentional effect than anything) it feels much better to make your character who you want it to be, but most of the time the lore is really annoying to find and behind loads of fetch quests for people you barely know that you would have to be really generous to bother doing from an in-universe perspective, which leads to everyone caring even less about the world and really just wanting to focus on becoming as powerful as possible ASAP for the gameplay aspects.
So how would I envision a game that ties all of these goals into one, each of them supporting the other rather than invading on the other's territory?
The answer is one that sounds really pathetic, honestly: NPC companion.
"What? NPCs? Dude, you're playing a game with tons of real human beings in it and you want us to focus on NPC companions? Get a lif- oh wait actually no we need you to stick around for business, please don't go!"
There's a big problem to friends that are actual human beings. You don't really get that invested in them unless they specifically happen to be your type, and even then you keep your distance for the sake of respect. Additionally, when they do participate in storyline content with you, it will be really hard to synchronize anything two players are doing progress-wise, and most importantly, actual human beings are not always available! If you are looking forward to an experience with a friend, them turning out not to be online is only a downer. Waiting isn't fun either.
But NPC companions kind of tend to be dull and stuff as it is. So what do you have to do to make them interesting? Make the NPC companion the main character.
I don't mean like Chrom and the Avatar where the game tries to make Chrom seem like the more important guy but ends up really giving you all the big story relevance anyway. I mean where the NPC is the true main character, and you take the role of a follower. In the scenario I have imagined, as you begin the game:
There are six NPC companions. Three boys and three girls (to increase accessibility for all players) all with separate, personal storylines, with varied backgrounds and designs. You choose which one to follow on character creation. You also choose to follow them either as a subordinate or as a superior, like some butler or lord's sheltered daughter or something(hey, if you're going to commit to playing an MMORPG, you BETTER be inside long enough to relate to houselocked roles) that is dragged into the adventure of another. It's like an indirect call to adventure or something.
The NPC companions serve to become your source for the first two listed goals under "JRPG", perhaps even making it so extreme as to prevent you from leveling up and exploring much of the world without progressing in their story event, since otherwise many players may just go do whatever and forget the game even had a story. I mean, think about it, normally you don't even exist as a personal character in a JRPG. Being a side-character can't be all that bad, you're still mainly here for the sake of them as it is. And what does this stop you from doing? Nothing! You still have access to extraordinary levels of personal customization, your stats probably still work out in the same way they usually do, you're still likely the one that has to go out and discover (the NPC companion doing it for you would take parts away from it being a game and it being more of something to watch, so they probably just give hints like "There's something about this room...I can feel it. Let's look around."), you're still the one that has to do the bulk of the fighting(even if the screen might not make it look that way), all it really takes away is the spotlight, AKA you don't get to be:
some super amazing mega god who solves everyone in the virtual universe's problems
So what does this all mean? What problems does this avoid that MMOs usually have to put up with?
For one, you are always with your companion. There are endless opportunities to get to know them better, and no matter what having them by your side will have to form a connection between you and the character at some point.
Another thing is that the companion is a specific character that also reserves the attention typically given to you for themselves. You are their supporter. You don't have to deal with the game making you play out as someone you can't identify with, involving quest responses that just make you think: "I wouldn't say/do that!" Your player character is primarily a medium to learn more about your companion...
...and your companion is also perfect for being the one to help you learn about the game. They can be your tutorial guide in one of the most natural and seamless ways possible, remember when I said "butler" or "lord's sheltered daughter"? These two roles normally wouldn't know how to go off on a videogame adventure. "How do I use sword?" It is an opportunity for and the responsibility of your companion, who dragged you into this in the first place(somehow), to help you become someone that is suitable for the game...and what better medium to have this long process done than in the grindfest MMORPG? You have so many things to learn; skills, economics, enemy weaknesses and strengths, stat distributions, equipment properties, upgrade processes, where what happens and when, and instead of going to some forum or wiki to read up on guides and stats and so on or always having to check the game site to find out when certain events are or where the quests happen, you can just ask your NPC friend! They won't ever be snide or criticize you. They understand your situation and have responsibility. You don't have to deal with any assholes that go "If you can't even handle a little criticism..." when they go out of their way to inform you in a condescending fashion. You have a friend at all times.
No matter what character you chose, it will establish them as being reliable and make you more comfortable with the structure of the relationship. Additionally, as you explore the world(the WRPG side of it, "Exploration"), instead of you having to find lore(more of the WRPG side) behind "some guy's" fetch quest, your chosen companion instead demonstrates their knowledge of the place(which may be limited, you might have to make another character with a different companion to learn more first-hand!) And speaking of quests, instead of "some guy" giving it to you and expecting you to put up with their typically unreasonable request...it could be your companion that gives you the quests. Maybe they won't even tell you why. But during their storyline(or whatever sidequest you felt like going on that they agreed to because reasons), it turns out there's an objective they need to accomplish...and they want your help.
Here's another benefit to them always sticking with you: the quest might give the illusion of being a smaller burden. If for whatever reason the scenario is that you need to collect 500 "Mystical Herb", your companion could ask you(or you could ask them if you're the one who got the quest from someone else) to get 250 "Mystical Herb"...don't worry, he/she will get the rest! That's not any different in workload from if the quest simply happened to be "get 250 Mystical Herb" in the first place instead of making the pretense "get 500", but doesn't it make you feel better about doing it anyway? It's not some NPC that always stands in the same place doing nothing loading all the work on you. It's someone who wants your help with something both of you probably benefit from overall, and instead of getting some throwaway gratitude from "some guy" NPC, you instead receive greater trust from your companion, which may lead to them becoming more comfortable about talking to you with more sensitive matters. Some parts of their storyline might even need a certain "trust rating" to continue, increasing the playtime(those fetch quests exist for a reason) in the game, but doing so in a way that you know is meaningful.
But what's the most amazing thing? What about all of this doesn't pose a problem in an MMORPG?
NPCs can be made invisible to other players.
This solves the huge issue with the awkwardness that is clones everywhere. There doesn't need to be clones everywhere. The NPC companion you have is effectively the only one of his/her kind. it makes them out to be that much more of an individual, which is really important when you are playing the game for them. All those other companion-less players sticking around are great at doing something else: making the world alive. NPCs usually try to take this role in offline games. Online? They don't have to, and frankly, they suck at it with how little effort is usually put into them. This will also serve to conserve a lot of effort on the developer's end for making a bunch of unique, shallow NPCs for quests or whatever (just have your companion give you quests! Or approach your companion's family members for quests or something. Whatever the case, it's "people you know" instead of "some guys".)
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But enough about what the companions can do for your experience. That's not really what their main purpose is. Their main purpose is for you to invest in their experience. Starting out, being that both of you would be really low level, the story would most likely take on rather small, mundane matters of everyday life. But there's something a bit special to that in itself; how often do you get to see this side of a character? They're usually too busy just using this kind of event as filler until BAM YOUR LIFE IS FUCKED HERE TAKE THIS ADVENTURE. What if, for example, you go into their room at an inopportune moment and find something they wouldn't want you to know about? That's an event that's only really for if you're not too busy doing plot things for plot advancement. Those small, easy quests early on in the game are going to be boring anyway 99% of the time. But then your partner starts complaining in a way(that you can relate to) that foreshadows what's to come:
"I don't want to live this kind of life anymore...do you?"
Answer:No
"Really now? Hey, from what I've heard, you've never been out of this castle for your whole life, have you?"
Answer:No
"Then...how does an adventure sound to you? There's always been something that I've wanted to do...something that I couldn't do alone. Will you come with me?"
Answer:Yes
FIRST EPISODE START!
or
Answer:No
"What, really? That's a shame. There's such a vast world beyond us, full of explorers out there potentially making a legend out of themselves. Tell me if you ever have a change of heart, hopefully not when it's too late."
This is still a call to adventure. But it's not something weird and sudden. You're in a role where you've been with this person for a long time(even if you don't know them that well)...and he/she has an ambition. This isn't enough for them, and they don't think it's enough for you, either. Maybe you're even the only one they can trust enough to ask this. But who knows what their start to adventure will be? A plan of treachery to free them of their social duties, even should it mean exile? The reveal of a mysterious artifact that the main character (them, not you) has been hiding all this time, waiting for this moment to share it with you so that they may one day find out what it means? The intention to join the occult and become something beyond human via their practices, but with a safety net(you) to keep them from going too far? It all depends on who you chose to be your companion.
But whatever it is, it would always be slow paced. This is an MMO after all. And what can a slow pace offer you? More time to interact with the character, more time to see how they think and feel about what's happening, more time for silly little things that indicate something about them that don't have any place in a fast plot, more time to just kick back and relax (and maybe talk about things neither of you want to hear but need to discuss, like the financial consequences of what they've been doing lately.) Everything would start out from a small-scale episode (that are still packed with meaningful content, just not "GOTTA SAVE THE WORLD OMG" as an objective) that one-ups itself each episode, because an MMO has the time for that. It expects you to stick around long enough to pull it off. At the beginning, there might only be 3 episodes for each NPC companion, none of which conclude the true scope of their adventure. But that's only a bad thing in an offline game. An MMORPG is a growing thing, every expansion, someone could get a new episode. Something to continue on the adventure. Maybe they'll even listen to some fan theories about what'll happen next or what to add to their backgrounds and roll with it. And until then, when you've finished the episodes available?
Talk to your friends. Your MMO friends. About your companions. About what you learned about them. About how cute/hilarious/badass/intriguing/profound/relatable you found them. About what that bit of lore and personal memories they mentioned over at "Enchanted Mines of the Black Forest" and "Azure Volcano of the Abyss" might foreshadow, what it might mean in the bigger picture. About how much the episode's cliffhanger pissed you off and how your companion REFUSES to tell you anything about it even with his/her Trust rating super high. About how you have no idea what would have happened if you chose the other response, and feel the need for your friend with the same companion to tell you the answer. About how you thought up some hilarious comics about situations you could have seen in another angle from what the game intended but can't be bothered to draw them. MMOs naturally provide a subject for all players of the game: the content of the game. This is one of the greatest strengths of the MMO community. And when should you talk about this? When you're off doing those little sidequests and so on to fill in the time. When there's a dungeon unrelated to the story that you can get together to clear out. When you're busy trying to sell that rare drop you got at the auction house and have nothing else to do in particular. There are all kinds of moments in MMOs where you are out of the action enough to engage in some conversation with fellow players. And really, the best thing about fan theories is being able to share and discuss them.
And you know what? Your NPC companion isn't the only important person in the game either. I mean, JRPGs are about a cast after all, it won't do much good if everything is all about one person(that's how WRPGs feel at times...), that'd just be insufferable. The NPC companion's other acquaintances and their antagonists could easily serve as fairly interesting characters in themselves. Some of the really popular ones might even turn into NPC companions themselves later down the line and get their side of the story too, adding to the default number(6) of options new characters can choose to accompany.
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There are some things I couldn't really find a place to explain them in, but let's look at the list of goals in the three genres again:
JRPG:
Set characters with significant personalities (enough for people to expect you to actually care about them anyway)
Character interaction
Spectacle
Narratively compelling battles
WRPG:
Exploration
Expression
Agency (choices that affect an events' outcome...ideally)
Rich, almost overwhelming lore
MMORPG:
Keeping players in the endless-by-design game
Creation of a virtual society (with a whole lot more measures for importance than "Amount of friends and likes")
Eternal balance (in a PvE context)
Let's look at what the scenario has melded together in a harmonious way:
- Characters with significant personalities (you might not be the one controlling them, but they're there alright. The initially small limit of 6 with distinct storylines also makes it a lot easier for there to be varied writers taking off the workload from other ones without getting inconsistent about it, while still remaining high quality.)
- Character interaction (you and the NPC companion, the NPC companion with whoever is relevant in their storyline)
- Spectacle (this is really just a matter of how much money they're willing to put in, and MMOs are prohibitively expensive as it is so might as well throw more money at the effects and cutscenes and so on)
- Narratively compelling battles (With how the events start off being small-scale and build up at a slow pace, it's bound to contribute extremely to rising action if the enemy is well-written enough, while satisfying you with temporary conclusions on the way each time an "arc" ends.)
- Eternal balance (the leveling up cap from where you are in the story stops you from being too overpowered for a boss fight, which will also make the boss fight that much more significant, because you can't just cheese your way through it. It contributes to the effectiveness of 4.)
- Exploration (all MMORPGs should set out to promise more and more open-world content as it lives on, so this is just a given)
- Expression (As stat-crazy MMORPGs can get, most of the time it also offers the most cosmetic customization out of every videogame ever, and there are all kinds of different skills and weapons and so on you can play with. Additionally, your expression won't be impaired by the narrative making you do things that you feel aren't in-character for you, because your character isn't significant enough to have to railroad them into being a certain kind of personality.)
- Agency (you...don't have any control over just how much loyalty you have for your NPC companion, and most of the time it's their choices that matter rather than yours, but it's very possible that they will often ask for your input, or for you to need to intervene in certain situations, like breaking up a fight between your companion and his/her older brother, choosing whether or not to check for if their meals are poisoned, or something. It is demoted from overflowing with sheer choice and freedom to becoming a matter of reducing it to the level of necessity though.)
- Rich, almost overwhelming lore (If the devs happened to include it, having the NPC companion mention it in certain contexts makes for a far more interesting experience than reading up on item descriptions and otherwise-useless books and so on. The companion would also tell you these things little by little, maybe telling you more if you ask. So not so much as it encouraging lore so much as saying it can be told in a more relevant way, since this would double as characterization.)
- Endless-by-design game (MMOs are always designed this way)
- Creation of a virtual society (Talking about the NPC companion gives you more things to talk about in the game to others, which may make it easier to make friends and so on. Economic and political matters form by themselves using the usual system's features like player-run shops and guilds.)
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Destroying the customer's grasp on reality
The one thing it would really be missing is the "immersion" factor, I guess. I really don't think that the photorealistic look or realism in general is good for MMORPGs, and that especially goes for one that's supposed to be character-driven. The creators should have as much freedom as they can afford to use with how much stuff they will probably need to design. So the typical WRPG fanatic might look at the NPC companion with blue hair and go "wtf?! breakin' mah immursionz!" and be alienated from the game. Or for whatever other reason they can come up with (other human players being a huge, rather reasonable one.) Since the JRPG part of it seems to be a huge emphasis with the WRPG and MMORPG part being more of a side-effect or part of how it usually is anyway, I imagine cel-shaded models designed by an anime-style artist who can actually make different faces would be best for the characters. Sprites kind of have a problem in that they make the world 2D or have this weird angle you look at your characters from (diagonally from above), the former has the issue of decreasing the potential for exploration, the latter has the problem of making how you look at others kind of impersonal.
I kind of want kirant to respond to this since it seems he's into game design to some level.
EDIT: I forgot to mention what the purpose of the superior v.s. subordinate choice was. Basically it would change up what you can do in an episode to change the course of events in a given episode, and probably how your companion talks to you. But in any case, the longer you go on an adventure together, the closer you and your NPC companion would be to becoming equals, so it evens out the longer you play.
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I might actually buy Persona 5. I didn't really find 4 all that appealing based on what I've seen of it but this one seems to remove itself somewhat more from the mundane. Persona 4's theme of accepting the self isn't really anything that's been a problem to me personally either. I'd be like Adachi. One with the shadow, instant Persona. (Whatever theme they're going with honestly isn't too important to me though, I just want to try out the demon summoning/fusing videogame thing from the source. Well not the source, but from a spinoff of the source.)