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@  Fire Blazer : (18 March 2020 - 03:18 AM) hope everyone is managing ok...
@  kirant : (03 March 2020 - 05:41 AM) New challenger approaching!
@  xcrash1998 : (26 February 2020 - 09:55 AM) Not anymore
@  Mage Girl : (17 February 2020 - 02:33 AM) I can safely say I'm so far the only person to post to this shoutbox in 2020...
@  Fire Blazer : (24 December 2019 - 03:17 AM) naw, it's when the bots make collaborated efforts to crawl places, lol
@  kirant : (23 December 2019 - 05:20 AM) What do we do on Index Day? Give each other bots?
@  Fire Blazer : (16 December 2019 - 01:39 AM) LOL
@  xcrash1998 : (30 November 2019 - 11:07 PM) New fictional holiday "Index Day"
@  Fire Blazer : (28 November 2019 - 08:52 PM) yeah just guest bots and stuff I think :( we really were active once upon a time though...
@  kirant : (26 November 2019 - 03:48 PM) No invasion. I imagine a lot of guest bots visiting for indexing purposes.
@  xcrash1998 : (26 November 2019 - 02:15 PM) How is most people online at 959 for the 8th of October of this year? Is that right? Did I miss something or was there somekind of spambot invasion?
@  xcrash1998 : (26 November 2019 - 02:06 PM) I know what you mean, it gets awkard to post something unrelated to the current conversation, and even if somebody picks up on it, it would just become a huge mess in the c hatbox if a multitude of groups talk about different topics.
@  Fire Blazer : (10 November 2019 - 11:45 PM) especially better imo if you want to update on a topic but like only occasionally (e.g. a project you're working on or a let's play of a game)
@  Fire Blazer : (10 November 2019 - 11:44 PM) it's hard for me to explain precisely why but forums just like work better for meaningful discussion over a longer period of time ig
@  Fire Blazer : (10 November 2019 - 11:44 PM) but that's def just not hte same ig, idk
@  Fire Blazer : (10 November 2019 - 11:44 PM) yeah, you can also kind of respond at your own pace on forums. Discord conversations are often like... it's awkward to respond to something that happened a while ago, especially if the server is active, but even just in general. since you sort of need to keep track of multiple conversations at once at times, and it's not like it has a good reply/quote system ala forums, closest thing really is to copy/paste or screenshot the text you're responding to and then type a response below
@  Elwood : (09 November 2019 - 11:29 AM) Adding on to what's been said, I just enjoy the order and structure of the forums. You can look through the threads and know exactly what people are talking about. Conversation get lost and buried on discord which is why I'm not a big fan of it.
@  kirant : (06 November 2019 - 05:31 AM) I enjoy that part of forums too. They become niche communities where you can have very specialized conversations as opposed to the cluttered mess in Discord.
@  Ezra : (31 October 2019 - 01:17 AM) Yeah, part of me wishes I could go back to the times forums were more prevalent. I really enjoyed how even several different forums based off the same franchise could feel so different. It's not like what we now is bad though, I just feel nostalgic for old times.
@  Fire Blazer : (30 October 2019 - 06:39 AM) also forums in general are just not as prevalent, there are so many other ways to interact these days, like Twitter, FB, Tumblr, etc., where you can just throw your thoughts into the void. I think that's the real issue and that the only people rly interested in forums these days are either super dedicated to whatever they're about, have a specific reason/need to (e.g. support forums), or grew up with them and are thus attached to the idea enough to continue to try and use them (this was kinda me for a while lol but things happen, I couldn't keep it up forever)

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What do you believe?


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#21 Ezra

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 04:00 AM

listened to the video, thanks for the link, maybe I'll see if I can find a bit about the story he wrote online, it sounds interesting.

#22 Prince Marph

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 03:14 PM

I'm a jew lol

What really annoys me about "mainstream" religion today though is that people act like everything and anything good that ever happens is because of God, like as if they had no role in doing it whatsoever. Come on, giving humanity credit still makes God look good - just look at that clever design that eventually popped out from evolution! Thanks for creating a system that works, God!

God made evolution, evolution gave us brains - let's use them instead of depending on mommy God to do everything for us. There's a REASON why people have free will lol

Seriously, is it THAT ****ing hard to get.

On the topic of Lucifer, I think Lucifer was sort of a creation by man to convince people to stay on the path of God. Of course, in a way, they were essentially laying the groundwork to say "hey, since that person doesn't believe in God the way I do, they are going against the way of God, and therefore they are like Lucifer". I get SO much shit about how "I'm going to hell" because I don't believe in Jesus. Honestly, don't you think it makes more sense for God to revel in the creativity of man, the creation of his evolution, to describe him in so many beautiful and wonderous ways? Personally God to me is a guiding force, but like a good mentor, he tries to tell people to do what is good, and if they don't follow, he shake his head. When we die, those who followed his path will be closer to him, and thus feel his parenting warmth and security. Those who don't stray further from him. No real punishment, no real reward - but the person has a decision to make, and what they get is really more of a reflection of their views rather than a punishment for not agreeing. That's how I feel (a good mother doesn't murder her children if they disagree on politics).

And on the topic of all Devil-related bull: "Oh, I did something wrong? The devil convinced me do it". Seriously, do people understand how this makes people sound? People have the capacity to be evil through corruption, but that corruption is born in the minds of humans, not some little red goat-person telling us to be naughty.

Despite my personal beliefs that Jesus wasn't really what Christians believe he was, I think that he doesn't need to be for him to be a truly brilliant person. I think that Jesus was among some of the greatest men that ever lived, simply because of what he preached. Don't weaken his true strength by just saying it was "oh, well that's because he was God". No, he wasn't God (imho of course) but because he wasn't, it really shows his true strength, power and greatness. I'm not saying God isn't wonderful and great, but that's sort of a prerequisite to being God lol - humans can range from the completely horrible to the truly wonderful, and I think that's the beauty of mankind. We can't just say that we can't be wonderful and great people too just because we're not God, we can't let that be an excuse to just let us be stupid people.
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#23 Seraphinox

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 03:36 PM

QUOTE
If you guys actually care and want to know the truth


Who are you? gods spokesperson?
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#24 Prince Marph

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Seraphinox @ Aug 19 2010, 10:36 AM)
QUOTE
If you guys actually care and want to know the truth


Who are you? gods spokesperson?

Well, obviously he's trying to convert us lol
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#25 w00t

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:26 PM

QUOTE (Charon the Ferryman @ Aug 19 2010, 07:37 AM)
QUOTE (Seraphinox @ Aug 19 2010, 10:36 AM)
QUOTE
If you guys actually care and want to know the truth


Who are you? gods spokesperson?

Well, obviously he's trying to convert us lol

actually i just want to clear up some of the misconceptions about Christianity and the Bible because i personally think Christians have a bad rep from people who say they are Christian, but from their actions, you wonder if they really are

and I know that people have twisted what the Bible says so that they can use it for their own benefit and its wrong



and about you guys saying that where your from people are giving praise to God for the things that come out well in their life.....where the heck do you guys come from?

because where I am from, i just the reverse

whenever something goes wrong they curse God
and whenever they accomplish something or it turns out right, they say "oh look at what I did guys" giving no credit to God at all

and heres the kicker...people who claim not to believe in God tend to blame him for things that go wrong too.
I mean how ignorant can people be? one minute they say God doesnt exist, and the next they curse Him for all the things wrong in their life
Everything that they said was contradictory

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#26 Prince Marph

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:37 PM

Most of your points are I don't think are actually showing the hypocrisy of those who don't believe in a God that say "God" in common language - many phrases with the word "God" in them don't even really mean anything religious anymore, despite their religious roots...
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#27 bblues

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:58 PM

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intelligent design


It is a hypothesis, nothing more, nothing less. It is a metascientific one as well.

Not just to trash your point, but it is not a fact. It is another hypothesis. Like many others.

QUOTE
second - it really is pointless to keep asking what created _____ because you could keep asking that for eternity and get nowhere.


No, that's exactly the point. There is no reason why god should just be, or why the big bang should just be. We could all be wrong, and that's the fun of it. We are currently existing for no real reason other than that we do.

As for the Old Testament, there is a lot that is considered wrong nowadays. You mentioned Lot. His daughters drugged him and had sex with him. David had many concubines and the like. There are excerpts to stoning a child who misbehaved. God in the OT being rather more harsh on people. But of course, it provided things like the commandments that gave a set of basic laws that can be seen to this day.

The New Testament. Well, Jesus may or may not have been the son of god, according to your religion, but he set out many morals and ways to be a better person.

QUOTE
"God" in them don't even really mean anything religious anymore, despite their religious roots...


This as well. It lacks anything religious depending on context anymore.

I don't enjoy debating god, mainly because it is difficult to agree with someone who believes so strongly in something that you may not agree with them, and being religious or not is often a core aspect of someone.

#28 Memento Mori

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 11:46 PM

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Read the second part of my first post.

For the record, Jesus did in fact, historically exist, just not in the same deistic vein that he is today (nor was he usually styled as such before 400 CE or so).

QUOTE
the topic of Lucifer, I think Lucifer was sort of a creation by man to convince people to stay on the path of God. Of course, in a way, they were essentially laying the groundwork to say "hey, since that person doesn't believe in God the way I do, they are going against the way of God, and therefore they are like Lucifer".

Just as a kicker, here, if anyone plans on joining a particular religion nowadays, try to confirm that the sky fairy you'll be worshiping isn't less noble then the devil he creates.

#29 w00t

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:03 AM

QUOTE
It is a hypothesis, nothing more, nothing less. It is a metascientific one as well.

Not just to trash your point, but it is not a fact. It is another hypothesis. Like many others.


its a hypothesis if you dont believe in it


and my main point was just to show some of the people on this forum that there is actually a lot of scientific evidence for intelligent design now because our research and technology has gotten better

and just food for thought, some of the laws of thermodynamics have not been proven, yet we state them as laws of nature, and base our understanding of a lot of science and technology around them because of the evidence that points towards the likelihood that they are true



in any case I am not gonna try to evangelize you guys through a debate or anything like that because personally I dont think it works and God isnt about debates

as i said before, my purpose was to clear up misconceptions and just to represent another side so that this Maturity Discussion doesnt become a topic where people just bash on a topic

but if anyone does have a legitimate question, I would be more than happy to answer it

God bless
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#30 Zeldaicflame

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:58 AM

QUOTE (w00t @ Aug 20 2010, 04:03 PM)

its a hypothesis if you dont believe in it


Uhh, no.

A hypothesis is an educated guess on anything.

The only way a hypothesis can become "True" or "False" is if it is tested using the scientific method, where one uses their own senses to make an accurate judgement on what has happened. For instance; I put copper in silver nitrate. I hypothesize the copper will be displaced by the silver and then the solution will become copper nitrate. Then I observe what happens. Oh hey the copper went all silvery and the solution turned blue. using mass spectrometry, one will find that the solution is copper nitrate and the metal had indeed be displaced by the silver. Hence making my hypothesis "Fact" or "True".

(This is part of a way in which batteries work -- If metal displacement did not happen we would not have galvanic cells with which to make batteries.)

Now, when this is applied to something like god or a creator. And one hypothesises that a god or divine being exists. There is no way in which we can use the scientific method or using sight, touch, smell, hearing or tasting to definitively say that such a being exists. Saying things like the probability of the universe and matter reacting the way it does is incredibly tiny does not say that there must be a creator. Because, of course, there is still a chance.

Also believing in a hypothesis or not does not make it true or not. Using my example from before -- If I do not believe in the hypothesis of the metal reacting and displacing with the solution does not make it "False". Inversely, if I believe in something, it does not make it "True".

(Sorry about the long post and probably unnecessary information)

#31 w00t

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:43 AM

oh sorry it was my bad for not specifying for a certain person because opinion comes into play with something that people will inevitably disagree on

with your example, you did not take account for what the results of the experiment actually yielded and therefore is not the right example for the situation
because i presented actual evidence of the research which led to a conclusion of the hypothesis

QUOTE
Saying things like the probability of the universe and matter reacting the way it does is incredibly tiny does not say that there must be a creator. Because, of course, there is still a chance.


this is true, however this is why I brought up the laws of thermodynamics
because there is a chance that they are wrong, but most people accept them

and you would be surprised about how many people come up with theories for inventions that break some of the laws of thermodynamics


but anyway its probably true that hypothesis may not the right word here
because now we get into a discussion of evidence that some people would say is clear enough to reach a conclusion while other people can say that the same evidence is not clear enough

so personally for me, when I see that researchers have found that the chance that the universe appeared randomly with such finely tuned parameters for life is so small that just one of those parameters as a chance of 1 in 1E54 (thats 1 followed by 54 zeros for those who dont know) of being set at the right force for universe to exist....

edit* i guess you could just say the chance is 1E-54*

it seems convincing to me, therefore in opinion, it is not a hypothesis
which is a valid statement because anyone can interpret the results of research

by the way thats one parameter, there are at least 30 just like it, and if you know anything about probability you know that when you add more variables the chances of something occurring go down even further
in this case, exponentially
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#32 Prince Marph

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 03:01 PM

To be honest, to me, God serves as a buffer for what we don't know. It's truly impossible to know everything, and thus this buffer will always remain in place for me. Whether or not some people believe in this buffer determines whether they are religious or athiest...

QUOTE
this is true, however this is why I brought up the laws of thermodynamics
because there is a chance that they are wrong, but most people accept them

and you would be surprised about how many people come up with theories for inventions that break some of the laws of thermodynamics

However, unlike religion, the laws of thermodynamics have more than a text serving as a backing for their existence. It may be true that they're all wrong, but what it means is that a new model needs to be put into place rather than people just saying they're right or wrong. This is where religion and science differ - when science is proven wrong, it is encouraged to move it forward and develop a better model, but when religion has all of the evidence stacked against it it still insists that it is correct.

QUOTE

but anyway its probably true that hypothesis may not the right word here
because now we get into a discussion of evidence that some people would say is clear enough to reach a conclusion while other people can say that the same evidence is not clear enough

The issue of evidence is a good issue to bring up, however, I think most people with very logic-oriented minds would agree with me that the Bible is not necessarily the most reliable piece of evidence. It's not God's word, it's God's word written down by man. The meaning has been changed with every translation, every interpretation, every damn reading of the book itself. You can't use the Bible as substantial evidence because of this fact that its meaning is different to everyone. That doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, however, it is an extremely varied and unreliable source of information.

QUOTE

so personally for me, when I see that researchers have found that the chance that the universe appeared randomly with such finely tuned parameters for life is so small that just one of those parameters as a chance of 1 in 1E54 (thats 1 followed by 54 zeros for those who dont know) of being set at the right force for universe to exist....

edit* i guess you could just say the chance is 1E-54*

it seems convincing to me, therefore in opinion, it is not a hypothesis
which is a valid statement because anyone can interpret the results of research

by the way thats one parameter, there are at least 30 just like it, and if you know anything about probability you know that when you add more variables the chances of something occurring go down even further
in this case, exponentially

To me, it's more like "If God does indeed exist, like I personally believe, he originally formed the systems that we are trying as humans to discover". Think of it more like setting a groundwork than anything. Not parameters, not any of that stuff, but rather forming the fundemental building blocks of all matter and existence. To me God is more of a force that created the world we live in today with making the most simple of fundemental forces - indeed, you could even say that, to me, God is analogous to the Big Bang. Perhaps this creative force is dormant or still at work. I dunno lol. When you die the enlightenment of understanding what this true force is is heaven to me, so in that sense science works with and for God, and by following old scriptures to the point of ignoring scientific advancement, we're not advancing to understanding what God is at all, but rather leaving Him shrouded so that we'll never know, and we'll never have the enlightenment of understanding our universe and Him.

And that's why I don't believe in Jesus, Heaven or Hell.
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#33 w00t

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:48 PM

so you are saying that you dont believe in something unless you fully understand it?
well that is your personal belief then and you are entitled to your own belief

i do agree with you saying that we will never fully understand God.
because if God is indeed God then we cannot fully understand Him because He would have created us..making us a lesser being


QUOTE
However, unlike religion, the laws of thermodynamics have more than a text serving as a backing for their existence.


assuming the religion you are talking about is christianity - which is actually different from what i was talking about because i was talking about Intelligent design aka the possibility that God created the universe

aristotle is said to have started some of the theories for thermodynamics and if you want to talk about actual text, we have only about 5 copies of aristotle's work and the time span between the date written and earliest copies we have are like 1400 years

while the Bible has nearly 25,000 ancient copies and the time span between date written and the earliest copies of that written text is like 50 years max? some archeologists say that its just co-existant since its within one person's lifespan
which is the closest time span of ANY historical document existing
and the most historical, textual evidence of ANY historical document

and the next document with the most copies (copies meaning they are similar in content as well, if there is too much variation then they are not called a copy) is the Illiad with around 600-650 copies


and its not a valid argument to say that we have more experimental research for the laws of thermodynamics because I have already given you the research in favor of intelligent design which makes the possibility that intelligent design is wrong is like the possibility that the laws of thermodynamics are completely wrong, which i think almost every educated scientist/professor will tell you are indeed laws of nature


QUOTE
This is where religion and science differ - when science is proven wrong, it is encouraged to move it forward and develop a better model, but when religion has all of the evidence stacked against it it still insists that it is correct.

um yes this is certainly true for some religions, but obviously not the Bible or God the creator of the universe in light of the evidence stacked FOR it


but I actually was not discussing religion so much as discussing the idea that God created the universe

Since religion is the worship of a said god or God, I was not discussing a particular religion, but merely addressed the idea of intelligent design, and I also showed the people on this form on a previous post how to correctly interpret the Bible since there was a lack of foundational knowledge (context)

Just like you need the foundation of certain mathematics before you understand say a differential equations textbook, because typically someone who lacks that foundation will look at the differential equations in the textbook and say, "this makes no sense."


so please try not to mix topics (it makes things so much harder to discuss) and remember diction

QUOTE

The meaning has been changed with every translation, every interpretation, every damn reading of the book itself. You can't use the Bible as substantial evidence because of this fact that its meaning is different to everyone.

actually this is false, there is only one way to interpret the Bible, but it has many applications
throughout translations of the Bible the meaning was always sought to be conserved, the words have obviously changed since its in many different languages now. still one interpretation though

just like an equation in math, there is one way to interpret the equation (as in what the equation means), but there are a ton of applications for it
example: you cannot say that the equation for the volume of a rectangle will give you the area of a sphere, however you can apply the equation for the volume of a rectangle to many things like the volume in a box
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#34 Zepher Tensho

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:37 PM

QUOTE (Memento Mori @ Aug 19 2010, 07:46 PM)
For the record, Jesus did in fact, historically exist, just not in the same deistic vein that he is today (nor was he usually styled as such before 400 CE or so).

For once Mori, I agree with you. Jesus did exist. But no necessarily as people say he did. Maybe he did set a standard for good morals, but I don't believe in these "miracles" he performed. I mean if such things are truely capable of happening, why don't they now? I mean god performed quite the "miracle" when he parted the red sea for the jews, but do you see such impossible things like that happening in this day and age? Nope.
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#35 bblues

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:45 PM

QUOTE (w00t @ Aug 20 2010, 08:48 PM)
aristotle is said to have started some of the theories for thermodynamics and if you want to talk about actual text, we have only about 5 copies of aristotle's work and the time span between the date written and earliest copies we have are like 1400 years

while the Bible has nearly 25,000 ancient copies and the time span between date written and the earliest copies of that written text is like 50 years max? some archeologists say that its just co-existant since its within one person's lifespan
which is the closest time span of ANY historical document existing
and the most historical, textual evidence of ANY historical document

and the next document with the most copies (copies meaning they are similar in content as well, if there is too much variation then they are not called a copy) is the Illiad with around 600-650 copies

Since when did the age of something prove it's validity.

Also, Aristotle's theories have been worked upon to make today's thermodynamics. There is plenty of present text, backed up with experimentation. The bible is only text, of which the content cannot always be proven. And thermodynamics are not called the laws of nature, they are just the model that is believed to be correct.

QUOTE
there is only one way to interpret the Bible

No, an interpretation varies, because it is what you make of it. I can interpret the meaning of a poem differently than another person. Same goes for the bible.

#36 Zepher Tensho

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:51 PM

QUOTE (Knight of the Realm @ Aug 20 2010, 04:45 PM)
Since when did the age of something prove it's validity.

^This. Just because something is old doesn't make it more true, if anything, the older it is, the more room for error exists.

QUOTE
QUOTE
there is only one way to interpret the Bible

No, an interpretation varies, because it is what you make of it. I can interpret the meaning of a poem differently than another person. Same goes for the bible.


Again, ^this. There is no one way to interpret anything. People see it as they want to, sadly, which is how we end up with the Westboro Baptist Group, who celebrate the deaths of US military because the government allows gays to serve. The WBC also openly declares that god hates the US as a whole and that we as Americans are gods sworn enemy. These are Christians doing and saying these unimaginable things. Why? They interpreted the bible differently.
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#37 w00t

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:11 PM

geez you guys didnt read my example at all did you

QUOTE

No, an interpretation varies, because it is what you make of it. I can interpret the meaning of a poem differently than another person. Same goes for the bible.


this is true only if there is actually multiple ways to interpret something

the author of a poem can write a poem in a way such that it is open to interpretation

the Bible was not written that way, people only think it is because, as you say they try to make it something else when it is not
so i guess i should say there are multiple ways to interpret things like the Bible or a math equation, but there is only one RIGHT way


Grey the example you provided is a great example of what i said earlier
i said something like...
"Christians have a lot of bad rep because people twist what is said in the Bible so that they can create their own benefit
which is wrong"

its like saying if I take an Xbox and use it as a skateboard
so many people would say what are you doing it wasnt created for that purpose
just like how if you interpret the Bible wrong you could end up with something like an Xbox being used as a skateboard

I wont comment further on that group because i have done no research on them so therefore i cannot comment past what you have stated




QUOTE
Also, Aristotle's theories have been worked upon to make today's thermodynamics. There is plenty of present text, backed up with experimentation. The bible is only text, of which the content cannot always be proven. And thermodynamics are not called the laws of nature, they are just the model that is believed to be correct.

ok well you cant perform an experiment on history.
age, textual evidence, promotes validity for a lot of historical things.
anyone know what archeology is? - dont answer that

we take what we find from other historical documents and then teach them to kids in school. like what certain texts say about the culture in Egypt or something like that
we take something like a person's diary or letters and we then infer about what Benjamin Franklin was like and what not
or we infer what ancient Rome was like through findings of buildings and documents that place certain people in certain places

i mean i guess you are entitled to say like no Magellan did not try to sail all the way around the world and say like he just made a U turn in the middle of the Atlantic and made up all the rest, but yeah i wont comment on that


and sure there is of course room for error, however as I said before what matters is that the intended message is still the same as before



QUOTE
I mean god performed quite the "miracle" when he parted the red sea for the jews, but do you see such impossible things like that happening in this day and age? Nope.


actually in a lot of Asian countries where news of Jesus is relatively new there are miracles happening
maybe not the same miracles like the red sea parting and what not, but they are happening
I mean i dont know if they are happening everyday, they could be
but the people who I have talked to, who have been to those countries have seen some pretty amazing stuff


why are miracles not as prevalent here?
no one is sure, however the theory is that
people in asian countries who are accepting Christ as their savior come from different religions where they believe in spirits, demons, supernatural stuff (the stuff does exist)
and so they much more faith that God can heal and preform miracles, and so it happens

I know this will not go over well with you guys here because most of you seem like you dont believe in God in the first place
and something supernatural is out of the ordinary here in the US so we have grown to just think that this stuff doesnt exist

I mean I can imagine for the Europeans way back in the day before trade with China was established and people moved back and forth I am sure it was hard for people to believe that villages in China could flood so much that people would have to exit from a second story window onto a boat to get to safety.
btw during certain seasons, that was a weekly kind of thing for some village people in China

but you know what...what happens is what happens and what people believe its another thing




in any case it seems like you guys are bringing up something else because none of you have anything to say about God creating the universe anymore
i guess the conclusion is that you can believe what you want in spite of any evidence presented no matter how sound it is.
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#38 w00t

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:53 PM

I know people dont like double posting, but i think that if i didnt do this, people would not read it because the other post got too long


I could be totally wrong here but if someone else can make a post of venting, then I can post this

i actually have a feeling that the problem you guys have with the Bible is not that a bunch of stuff happened historically and is recorded that way, but the problem you guys have is with the message that it brings itself

So no one gets mixed up, here is the basic message I will refer to later... the basic message is simply that
1. God created everything and God himself does not need to be created, because if He needed to be then He is probably not God
2. Humans are not perfect, aka sinful and therefore we cannot be with God because justice requires a debt to be paid for a sin
3. Since God loves us, He provides a way for us to be with Him by sending Jesus to die for us
4. Since Jesus was perfect, He died unjustly and therefore acts as a payment for our debt
5. "That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and you believe in your heart that He rose from the dead, you will be saved"
6. and the characteristic of someone who truly accepts Jesus is a changed life, living for something else, not yourself

ok? I didnt say that you have to believe it or anything, this is just so you guys know what I am talking about

so if there was an all powerful God and humans actually in need of redemption then it would make you change the way you live. And I think that you guys like doing what you do and you just want to live for yourself and not for something else

for instance if we say that hypothetically everything stated above is true and people knew it, i think a lot of people would still say that they want to live for themselves at this point in time
so sadly, they continue with their life.

But that is the hypothetical situation we face in reality. however, what i stated above still wont sit right with people and so people begin to question the idea of God because they think if they can rationalize that He isnt real, then they can do whatever they want and not feel guilty




I will even play the hypothetical situation in reverse for you guys.

If, hypothetically, God does exist and Jesus didnt do what He said He did (die for us) then we are all screwed anyway because we all die physically and then spiritually too. so actually this hypothetical situation is kinda pointless

If, hypothetically, God doesnt even exist. And as Knight of the Realm says "we exist because we exist" I will still be perfectly content with my life as it is right now. I live morally and I love my family and the people around me and I think ive achieved a lot and I try to do a lot for the poor so yeah. Believing in God called me to do all of those things anyway even if He didnt exist.



So did that strike a chord with anyone?
be honest with yourself, what is the real deal here? are you rationalizing? do you just want to live for yourself?

sorry if this offends anyone, I am just curious tongue.gif
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#39 bblues

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:05 PM

QUOTE (w00t @ Aug 21 2010, 12:11 AM)
QUOTE

No, an interpretation varies, because it is what you make of it. I can interpret the meaning of a poem differently than another person. Same goes for the bible.


this is true only if there is actually multiple ways to interpret something

the author of a poem can write a poem in a way such that it is open to interpretation

the Bible was not written that way, people only think it is because, as you say they try to make it something else when it is not
so i guess i should say there are multiple ways to interpret things like the Bible or a math equation, but there is only one RIGHT way

QUOTE
Also, Aristotle's theories have been worked upon to make today's thermodynamics. There is plenty of present text, backed up with experimentation. The bible is only text, of which the content cannot always be proven. And thermodynamics are not called the laws of nature, they are just the model that is believed to be correct.

ok well you cant perform an experiment on history.
age, textual evidence, promotes validity for a lot of historical things.
anyone know what archeology is? - dont answer that

we take what we find from other historical documents and then teach them to kids in school. like what certain texts say about the culture in Egypt or something like that
we take something like a person's diary or letters and we then infer about what Benjamin Franklin was like and what not
or we infer what ancient Rome was like through findings of buildings and documents that place certain people in certain places

and sure there is of course room for error, however as I said before what matters is that the intended message is still the same as before

in any case it seems like you guys are bringing up something else because none of you have anything to say about God creating the universe anymore
i guess the conclusion is that you can believe what you want in spite of any evidence presented no matter how sound it is.

Uh, humans interpret things differently. No, there is no right way to interpret the bible.
If I read it and believe the god is real and completely like that, that's one interpretation. It may also be read as a way of laying down rules in a society, using the idea of god as a way of giving the rules a higher power. Do you know the man who wrote the original bible? No. So how can you claim what his intention was? Did god really speak to him?

Yes, we can take certain documents and teach them at school. But what evidence in the bible is there to validate anything? Sure, some of the people might well have existed, but that's not exactly evidence. I found a piece of pottery in ancient greece depicting a minotaur, but nobody believes they existed. Documents? If you found books about the greek gods or roman gods in ancient cities, does that mean they are now valid, because according to you, the bible is a historical document..

And as for the universe, you say 'sound' evidence. It's a hypothesis, just because you want to believe it's truth, doesn't mean it is. That tiny chance in your evidence may actually be us. It doesn't matter, there are other hypotheses with just as much 'sound' evidence out there.

Edit: I notice a post came in when I was writing.
A- Who said the bible was right? What if actually, the Qu'ran is right? Then by proclaiming Jesus lord is actually wrong.
B- God may have been created by a being of higher power. Why not. The how does he get created still goes on. While sounding silly, the idea of god itself is silly to some people.
C- I'm sorry, but if I'm some guy on an island in the middle of nowhere, do I not get saved for not knowing about the bible? Rather unfair.
D-
QUOTE
And I think that you guys like doing what you do and you just want to live for yourself and not for something else

Uh, no. Really. There are plenty of people who believe in god and live for themselves.


#40 w00t

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:29 PM

QUOTE
But what evidence in the bible is there to validate anything? Sure, some of the people might well have existed, but that's not exactly evidence.

intelligent design? if there is a creator who made the universe, what gives you the right to say He is a liar? because God says He inspired all scriptures

and if He inspired all scriptures what gives you the right to say, "I want to interpret it this way?"

answer - you have none, because He is not a poet or the writer of movie like inception (pretty trippy btw) who created their works like to be interpreted

this next one is within the Bible so you may not like it, but Jesus fulfilled at least one hundred prophecies that were recorded in the Bible hundreds of years before because the chronology of Jesus in Matthew has a ton of generations it lists there
a lot of the prophecies are about Jesus' birth, what he would teach, how a lot of people would respond to His teaching, that he would die and rise again, etc
so at least the Bible supports itself.
any you cant deny a lot of the prophecies because we know historically that jewish rabbis studied them intensely and back in that time it was like a prerequisite to have the first 5 books of the Bible memorized to become a rabbi - so they did exist

and you guys have acknowledge that Jesus did exist at the very least


do you consider that evidence?




well if you believe in the hopelessly small chance that it was random, thats your choice
Ill go with logic.

name another theory that has as much 'sound' evidence as you say for the creation of the universe
I expect to see citations of said evidence and the education of the researchers


edit*
QUOTE
Uh, no. Really. There are plenty of people who believe in god and live for themselves.

sad truth

and did you know that you just did what my hypothetical situation suggested? and you didnt answer it yourself? or perhaps you did with your lack of a response
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