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Suicide


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6 replies to this topic

#1 ^Leo^

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 12:47 AM

Unfortunately a guy I know took his own life two days ago. I wasn't close to him really, but we got along OK. I wouldn't say we were friends exactly though we did hang out from time to time. But you know what? Having someone who grew up near you, regardless of how close you are, really sucks. But you know what sucks even more? Seeing all the bullshit from people who barely knew this kid talking about how much they'll miss him. Talking about how much the years they spent together mattered. I find it utterly unbelievable that the same people who ridiculed and bullied this guy could possibly feel anything from his passing. I'm not trying to hold anyone responsible for his death, and I don't want to offend anyone with what I'm saying. But if you spend 10 years making fun of someone behind their back, or to their faces, then the fact of their death shouldn't have that effect on you. And if you're only putting this crap up on Facebook because it's the "right" thing to do; stop right now. Because all you're doing is hurting the people who truly cared about him. You aren't consoling anyone by lying through your teeth. I'm saying all this as someone with experience having very close friends kill themselves. If you don't know someone don't say a damn thing when they pass on. It isn't your place, so stay out of it.

(sorry about all the anger here. Needed to vent a bit after I saw certain people posting about this on Facebook. I nearly lost it this morning)

#2 kirant

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 03:04 AM

First off, my condolences.  

 

But you know what sucks even more? Seeing all the bullshit from people who barely knew this kid talking about how much they'll miss him. Talking about how much the years they spent together mattered. I find it utterly unbelievable that the same people who ridiculed and bullied this guy could possibly feel anything from his passing. I'm not trying to hold anyone responsible for his death, and I don't want to offend anyone with what I'm saying. But if you spend 10 years making fun of someone behind their back, or to their faces, then the fact of their death shouldn't have that affect on you.

I think it's part of a "the dead can do no wrong" sentiment.  It doesn't matter if the deceased was a sexist, racist, and abusive.  It doesn't matter if you knew nothing about them...the socially "correct" thing to do is to give out your thoughts.  Really, death is the ultimate "cleanser" of reputation unfortunately.  Michael Jackson pre-death who lost his edge years ago?  A weirdo.  Michael Jackson post-death?  An incredible artist, once again.  Similarly, some guy I barely knew died?  My condolences (even if I haven't spoke to him in 10 years).

 

And if you're only putting this crap up on Facebook because it's the "right" thing to do; stop right now. Because all you're doing is hurting the people who truly cared about him. You aren't consoling anyone by lying through your teeth. I'm saying all this as someone with experience having very close friends kill themselves. If you don't know someone don't say a damn thing when they pass on. It isn't your place, so stay out of it.)

I think there's a fine line between expressing your condolences and giving blatantly false comments.

 

The universally accepted answer is to say "you have my condolences",  It's simple, to the point, and something that's probably true: you probably do feel bad someone died.  Maybe it's just the same side of me which has me go into a medical career but loss is something we almost universally understand.  We've almost all lost someone important to us or had experiences where we almost lost someone important to us.  Death is never fun.  The grief that follows is a bridge we all cross and to tell someone that you know that same emotion often has a soothing effect.  That you're not alone in the loss.  Now, of course, you can lay it on far too thick.  The above example you post sounds a little heavy in that regard if they didn't actually know the person. 

 

But at the same time, I think there's some things you might want to separate.  The thought that comes to mind primarily is if you knew this guy's life?  As in, the person who committed suicide...did you know all the changes in his life?  Unless you were there with him every day and knew every message he made, you might not be able to know if the claims are true.  If, for example, you didn't speak to him all that often and didn't reminisce about the "good old days" and ask "by the way, what happened to [bully]", it's entirely possible that they actually did make amends and became friends or the like. Now I'm not saying that this is strictly true or that it even happened...what I'm saying though is that I'm not sure, at least from the information you provide, that we can draw an exact conclusion.  Some fair things to say for sure though are that it's best to leave it as a "my thoughts are with the family" or "my condolences" type of words...and only go further if you actually do know the person...which might or might not be true in this case.

 

Of course, I'm projecting without any context to the exact words said so it's possible that the wording of his comments make this an impossibility.


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#3 Rujio

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 03:58 AM

I don't know that I want to respond much in particular to what you said. Suicide's a big deal, and, well, it's hard to think about it reasonably. It's been three years now since my own experience with suicide, and, although I'm never angry about it, and rarely upset at all, I certainly don't look at it rationally. Just two days on? No way it's something you'll be calm about.

 

But maybe it's worth keeping that in mind with other people, too. I mean, bullying is rarely about the person being bullied in particular. I can't imagine anyone wanted this to happen, and is going back on that now. Suicide puts everything in a new perspective. It gives everything a lot more weight, and that can really change how you think about a person.


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#4 ^Leo^

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 07:56 AM

I don't know that I want to respond much in particular to what you said.

Honestly I wasn't looking for a response to what I said. When I put this up here I was just so pissed off that I needed to get the thoughts out of my head. This was the first place that came to mind.

@kirant I had some things typed out here, but honestly it's not something I can say right now without making myself angry again. So I'll leave it at this: things may have changed, but some people just don't. The people i'm referring to have been the same people throughout the many years I've known them, and even with quite a few of our classmates dying this way they remained the same people they were before. It's hard for me to believe that it would be any different now after seeing it for so long.

#5 Mercurius

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 10:50 PM

I agree with Rujio on:

 

I mean, bullying is rarely about the person being bullied in particular. I can't imagine anyone wanted this to happen, and is going back on that now. Suicide puts everything in a new perspective. It gives everything a lot more weight

 

Most people in general that go about causing harm in the form of bullying and trolling are either under the impression that they aren't doing anything wrong/even if it is they just victim blame anyway while simultaneously having real death largely outside of their comprehension. Whether they would actually change their behavior from the experience is extremely debatable (I don't believe it's that easy) but if nothing else it seems like something beyond their relevance.

 

But if you spend 10 years making fun of someone behind their back, or to their faces, then the fact of their death shouldn't have that effect on you. 

 

I don't really see how these correlate. That's an incredibly long period of time emotional investment was put into them, and it was for the sake of amusement rather than out of hatred. I'll need more detail if there is any, and as kirant said, you pretty much have to give a response for social procedure, and that response 99% of the time is going to demand seeming respectful (in the other 1% of cases you can still try to take moral high ground in comparison to what others are saying about it and not suffer any repercussions, at least in developed countries anyway.)

 

There are many, many people out there that believe in being an asshole to someone as all being fun and games. Apparently there are even bullies out there who supposedly just really like someone but can't express their feelings properly (I never met one of such persons though.) Even for people who aren't one of those, it's something to fall back on to do the "right thing", feelings and actual respect don't really matter in such a situation. Righteousness is largely dictated by presenting an image of how things should be (supposedly) which is why it's so easy for it to become twisted and why the lot that aren't actual believers of it (hi) use it as a cover.

 

Frankly the part I find most irritating about this is the fact that social networking services are of relevance here. It's like when someone told me breaking up isn't official until it's Facebook official. To use one of the services that are ironically one of the most significant causes for damaging the perception of relationships in the modern age for the death of someone else, unless it's specifically to insult the dead, is more evocative of the sympathy bullshitting here than anything else. (Bonus points if they posted their condolences from a smartphone.)

 

 

 

On the subject of bullshit reactions to suicide, I feel that it's most relevant before it actually happens. There are actual people that I knew who were the "All suicide victims want is attention! They're cowards who can't put up with how life is hard." sort who will even start going into this "we actually care about you" BS when humans near them are insinuating committing suicide. Back when I was less socially conscious I even taunted such people by asking if they even knew the person's name, and it was almost comical how many only said it after someone else announced what it was. One of those "Oh yeah that, yeah I totally knew that heh don't even imply I wouldn't everybody does amirite" times where you know they didn't know shit for certain. I think the only thing they really want to keep from happening in such times is for real death to enter their life in some way. They don't want to have to put up with that kind of alien experience and have it disturb their emotional status quo. The social obligation is just something they do because they have to, what they really want is to prevent themselves from insecurity. (What else is more cited for the just disdain of someone else but that? Ironic, given that it's practically considered the golden rule of fiction for writing characters to actually care about.)

 

By the time death has already happened, it's far too late to go back.


I believe in judgment of humans through their judgment of fiction, for nothing else tells better of their disposition freed from apprehension.


#6 ^Leo^

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 01:28 AM

my point was that they didn't need to say anything at all about it on facebook, or twitter, or even in an irl conversation if it didn't come up. that didn't come across well because i wasn't thinking clearly at all when i put the first post up. was really just a rant because i needed to get it out of my head like i said earlier. i'm not saying that they should feel bad about the suicide because it was their fault, just that there wasn't any reason for them to say anything. I don't plan to and I used to hang out with him a bit. the people who weren't close to a person who takes their own life don't really have any reason to get involved unless the friends and family of the deceased reach out to them imo. social obligation doesn't mean anything when all you know is the persons name.



#7 Fire Blazer

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 04:11 AM

Unfortunately a guy I know took his own life two days ago. I wasn't close to him really, but we got along OK. I wouldn't say we were friends exactly though we did hang out from time to time. But you know what? Having someone who grew up near you, regardless of how close you are, really sucks. But you know what sucks even more? Seeing all the bullshit from people who barely knew this kid talking about how much they'll miss him. Talking about how much the years they spent together mattered. I find it utterly unbelievable that the same people who ridiculed and bullied this guy could possibly feel anything from his passing. I'm not trying to hold anyone responsible for his death, and I don't want to offend anyone with what I'm saying. But if you spend 10 years making fun of someone behind their back, or to their faces, then the fact of their death shouldn't have that effect on you. And if you're only putting this crap up on Facebook because it's the "right" thing to do; stop right now. Because all you're doing is hurting the people who truly cared about him. You aren't consoling anyone by lying through your teeth. I'm saying all this as someone with experience having very close friends kill themselves. If you don't know someone don't say a damn thing when they pass on. It isn't your place, so stay out of it.

(sorry about all the anger here. Needed to vent a bit after I saw certain people posting about this on Facebook. I nearly lost it this morning)

 

That's... highly unfortunate, and honestly, even if it was caused by anger or whatever, I feel like I understand how you feel. People are like that. Once they're gone, they'll act close or talk about how they were such friends or fans or whatever. But what was the reality? If you really did feel some way, did you show it? Do your previous actions match your words, or are you just going with the flow, going with the atmosphere of "it's so unfortunate they took their own life"?

 

People do this even with... not people. It might seem like a stupid analogy, but some people might pretend to be a huge fan of X video game series until it goes away/stops getting new entries. Or maybe they pirated it and are like "why isn't there a sequel?" and of course it's silly because they didn't buy the game/support the developers in the first place, so why are they saying that?

 

I think everyone has some good insight here. And again, I think venting your frustrations is fine, and even if you're wrong, maybe even you know you're wrong, you just have to do it, because it's how you feel. You can't always bottle up your emotions: in a way, that's more immature than sharing them. after all, no one is perfect that they can not react negatively to anything.

 

and I think that yeah, people sometimes feel like they have to react to something, but... you know, sometimes just a little peace, quiet, and reflection is okay. And being honest about what happened is for the better... even if it's harsh, even if you want to think better. I mean, in the end, if someone took their own life, I can only imagine there was some feeling of loneliness in them, meaning they probably didn't have exceptionally close/reliable friends, or if they did, said friends just couldn't do enought o help them due to being outside of their problems... so like... idk, yeah, it's just... weird in the end.


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