160 replies to this topic

[Fire Blazer]

I vote Sain.

[Rennac]

Sain. "The growth rates never lie" you say, but the more easygoing cavalier always turns out better for me.

[Seraphinox]

Are there any variables? eg, Sain is on a gate or in a woodland

I still vote sain, Kents healing is nullified by Sains strength advantage

[DH_Ninja]

[Blood Falcon]

[Blood Falcon]

6-6.

EDIT: I was almost postive this was in the above post. My bad.

[DH_Ninja]

[Blood Falcon]

[DH_Ninja]

I'm well aware of it. But you are aware that Kent can defend himself.

So 1 use of a vulnerary. Plus overall more balanced growths. There will be no terrain bonuses, no weapon triangle in play due to steel spears. Sain has 2 more strength then Kent on average. But Kent has on average 2 more hp plus a vulnerary, so he will always have that extra 10 hp plus whatever else his hp is.

I don't see how Sain wins.

[Hughes]

Basically Ninja's saying Kent does nothing on his first turn, Sain attacks and kent counters on the same turn, then Kent uses his turn to heal and just let Sain do all the attacking with Kent just countering to do his damage. Just one heal with that would give him the edge there, stats or no. Without that vulnary, Sain would be the obvious choice.

[Seraphinox]

I thought the rules would be the characters have to take an action?
So kent wouldn't be able to "do nothing" ??

[DH_Ninja]

Defensive move is Defensive : D : D

[Fire Blazer]

Sain wins by mind-games

The fact that Kent has a vulnerary gives him a huge advantage. The steel sword is completely useless, it's inferior to the steel lance and will never be used by a decent player.

The only way that Sain wins would be by luck; that is, a critical, or dodging.

Sain: 20/20
51.4
25
18.3
22.2
17.2
15.6
8.6

Kent: 20/20
54.3
22.2
26
24
9.6
16.5
11.5

Differences:

Level: +0
HP: Kent +3
Str: Sain +3
Skl: Kent +8
Spd: Kent +2
Luck: Sain +7
Def: +0
Res: Kent +1

Everything .6 and above rounded up, anything .5 and below rounded down.

Defense is even. Assuming they both use steel lance, the only factor that affects damage would be strength (assuming terrain is null, [0,0]). Sain has +3 strength.

Steel Lance has 10 mt, 10+25=35. 35-16=19. If I'm right, Sain does 19 damage when he hits. Since Kent has 54 HP in this situation, it's safe to say that a critical from Sain would mean Kent dies.

10+22=32-16=16. Kent does 16 damage, since Sain has 51 HP a critical would not kill Sain, but leave him with 3 HP.

So strength does make a difference, and if they were both to get criticals, Sain would come up on top.

Since Kent and Sain are using the same weapon (steel lance) and both have a con of 11 (starts at 9, +2 at promotion) the difference in attack speed would be +2 for Kent, which isn't enough to double. Kent has slight advantage in dodging but nothing else as far as speed goes.

I'm going to take this moment right here to negate the resistance factor; since neither uses magic it's pointless.

Kent has a huge advantage in skill stat. 70 (weapon) + 52 (skl) + 5 (lck) = 127 hit %. 127 - (40+17) = 127-57=70%. Avoid is 2xAS + luck. No terrain or support bonuses included, or any other type of misc. bonuses.

Sain is 70 + 36 + 8 = 114%. 114 - (44+10) = 114-54=60%. Sain has 60% chance of hitting.

So what we have so far.

Sain: 60% Hit, 19 Damage, ? Critical
Kent: 70% Hit, 16 Damage, ? Critical

Kent critical: (26/2) - 17 = 13-17 = ~0.
Sain critical: (18/2) - 10 = 9-10= ~0.

I guess critical doesn't matter since both wouldn't critical, but if it did, Sain's critical would be more effective because of the +3 strength which ultimately becomes +9 damage.

Sain: 60% Hit, 19 Damage, 0 Critical
Kent: 70% Hit, 16 Damage, 0 Critical

If I take out the vulnerary:

Sain hits, Kent counters. Kent hits, Sain counters but misses. Sain defends. Kent hits, Sain counters. Sain hits, Sain kills Kent.

Sain: 51 HP, Kent: 54 HP
*Fight 1*
Sain: 35 HP, Kent: 35 HP
*Fight 2*
Sain: 19 HP, Kent: 35 HP
*Fight 3*
Sain: 3 HP, Kent: 16 HP
*Fight 4*
Sain: 3 HP, Kent: 0 HP (Dead)

Sain wins, even though he misses. Why? Strength difference-- Kent needs 4 attacks while Sain needs 3. That 3 HP doesn't come in handy for Kent, if he had +7 HP then it would come in handy.

So in the situation given to us, why would Kent win? Simple, he heals himself.

Sain: 51 HP, Kent: 54 HP

*Fight 1, Sain attacks, Kent counters*
Sain: 35 HP, Kent: 35 HP

*Fight 2, Kent heals, Sain attacks but misses, Kent counters*
Sain: 19 HP, Kent: 45 HP

*Fight 3, Kent heals to 54HP, Sain attacks, Kent counters*
Sain: 3 HP, Kent: 35 HP

*Fight 4, Kent attacks*
Sain: 0 HP (Dead), Kent: 35 HP

You see? Kent doesn't even use all of his vulnerary and whoops Sain's ass. The inventory clearly puts Kent at a huge advantage. Even if Kent were to attack first, he would still win, although a smart Kent would simply wait there.

Speaking of which, I'ma have Kent attack in that battle before, without the vulnerary.

Kent hits, Sain counters. Sain attacks but misses, Kent counters. Kent hits, Sain counters. Sain hits, Kent dies.

Sain: 51 HP, Kent: 54 HP
*Fight 1*
Sain: 35 HP, Kent: 35 HP
*Fight 2*
Sain: 19 HP, Kent: 35 HP
*Fight 3*
Sain: 3 HP, Kent: 16 HP
*Fight 4*
Sain: 3 HP, Kent: 0 HP (Dead)

Same results, Sain wins...

Last situation I am presenting, Kent plays a little defensive.


Kent hits, Sain counters. Sain attacks but misses, Kent counters. Kent waits/defends. Sain hits, Kent counters. Kent hits, Sain dies.

Sain: 51 HP, Kent: 54 HP
*Fight 1*
Sain: 35 HP, Kent: 35 HP
*Fight 2*
Sain: 19 HP, Kent: 35 HP
*Fight 3*
Sain: 3 HP, Kent: 16 HP
*Fight 4*
Sain: 0 HP, Kent: 16 HP (Dead)

Assuming that the units play an all-out battle without the vulnerary advantage, Sain wins. If they play it smart, it depends on the situation and who gets the 1st attack, as well as who gives in to the opponent's tactics (technically Sain and Kent could keep on waiting/not do anything but the battle would never further that way, so one of them has to attack...).

Assuming the situation we were given where Kent has a vulnerary and makes use of it, Kent wins, but IMO the situation isn't balanced despite what BloodFalcon said about the inventories being balanced. THat's me, anyway, but the Steel Sword is useless and wouldn't mean anything unless the steel lances broke, which wouldn't happen because the battle would end before then. :\

[Blood Falcon]

The reason why I put the steel sword was to raise Sain's hit, even though it would be against the weapon tri.

Here's how it is, everything is rounded, assuming Sain hits every time:

Sain|Kent
51 |54
Sain hits; Kent has 35 hp, Kent hits; Sain has 35 hp
Kent uses vulenary; Kent has 45 hp, Sain hits, Kent has 26 hp.
Sain hits; Kent has 7 hp, Kent attacks; Sain has 19 hp.
Kent hits; Sain has 3 hp, Sain attacks; Kent has 0 hp.

You see, even though Kent attacked first on that last round Sain still would've survived, and Sain would've killed Kent. And how many times do I have to say it Kent can't attack on the same turn that he uses the vulenary, but Sain can make a profit of 9 damadge that turn, so that puts him to somewhat of an advantage.

[DH_Ninja]

[Fire Blazer]

Yeah, blood falcon does have a flaw, unless you are assuming a special circumstance made for the sake of this tournament, which would be meh.

Anyone want to disagree with my large statement, or agree, or summarize what I said so people don't have to read through all my calculations?

By the way, stats obtained from Serenes Forest, calculations from Fire Emblem Averages.

[Ristau]

I think There is NOOOOOOOOOOO Counterattacks on the same turn, it's all Only on your on turn, so If Sain attacks, no Counter, if Kent attacks no Counter.

[Seraphinox]

Sain still wins, Kent is a fool [/blah]

[Fire Blazer]

^Don't say useless stuff, actually support what you say.

[Seraphinox]

Sain is more fun, Kent is stuck up, but I guess it doesn't matter as kent will win, too bad I voted Sain