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A new secession?


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#21 Holy Kensai

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:29 PM

QUOTE (Germanicus @ Nov 15 2012, 04:21 PM)

Here. This was what I was referring to. Your other comment wasn't up when I was writing this.


The population of Texas is 25,674,681.
The amount of signatures on the Texas secede petition is 108,495.
Or 0.42% of the population.
The petition to stop it is has 310 signatures. Edit: (source: https://petitions.wh...e-fall/1K16tJXb ) It apparently dropped to 302.

So yes. Your state is being stupid. They are letting the minority get their voice heard while not speaking themselves. This gives the impression that the minority speaks for everyone.

But no. The original misunderstanding comes from poor wording on my part. I should have said a group within your state. My apologies.
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#22 Snow

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:30 PM

I'm not from or in the states atm but I did live there a long time and I don't really get why people want to do this, from what I've read most/all of you guys aren't in favor of this so I guess most people don't want to. I don't really see why someone would want to secede, I don't even think that if they do manage to do it they would be able to sustain an economy. I can't really find a reason online as to why people are trying to do this (it's probably in the most obvious place and I forgot to look there).
Could any of you guys show/direct me to a place where I could find out these guys reasons?
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#23 Holy Kensai

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:33 PM

QUOTE (Snow @ Nov 15 2012, 04:30 PM)
I'm not from or in the states atm but I did live there a long time and I don't really get why people want to do this, from what I've read most/all of you guys aren't in favor of this so I guess most people don't want to. I don't really see why someone would want to secede, I don't even think that if they do manage to do it they would be able to sustain an economy. I can't really find a reason online as to why people are trying to do this (it's probably in the most obvious place and I forgot to look there).
Could any of you guys show/direct me to a place where I could find out these guys reasons?


Mostly racism and religion, which are practically the same thing.

Here is one guy's reasoning though.

http://www.cbsnews.c...marxist-states/
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#24 Germanicus

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:37 PM

QUOTE (Holy Kensai @ Nov 15 2012, 12:29 PM)
QUOTE (Germanicus @ Nov 15 2012, 04:21 PM)

Here. This was what I was referring to. Your other comment wasn't up when I was writing this.


The population of Texas is 25,674,681.
The amount of signatures on the Texas secede petition is 108,495.
Or 0.42% of the population.
The petition to stop it is has 310 signatures.

So yes. Your state is being stupid. They are letting the minority get their voice heard while not speaking themselves. This gives the impression that the minority speaks for everyone.

But no. The original misunderstanding comes from poor wording on my part. I should have said a group within your state. My apologies.


So wait, you don't want the minorities to at least speak their mind? Everyone knows nothing will come of this. Why does it make us stupid if we just let them blow hot air all over the place? They're exercising the right they have to petition. Their ideas are stupid; we are not affiliated with them. I doubt very many people know that there is a petition to stop it, because there doesn't really need to be. The people on top will stop it regardless. I don't see the harm in letting the fools sort themselves out from the rest, because at the end of the day all they've done is proven that they have no idea what they're talking about. And the rest of us inside the states which have petitions know it.

And they're real reason for doing this is because Obama won the election; never let any of them tell you otherwise.

#25 Holy Kensai

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:39 PM

QUOTE (Germanicus @ Nov 15 2012, 04:37 PM)

So wait, you don't want the minorities to at least speak their mind? Everyone knows nothing will come of this. Why does it make us stupid if we just let them blow hot air all over the place? They're exercising the right they have to petition. Their ideas are stupid; we are not affiliated with them. I doubt very many people know that there is a petition to stop it, because there doesn't really need to be. The people on top will stop it regardless. I don't see the harm in letting the fools sort themselves out from the rest, because at the end of the day all they've done is proven that they have no idea what they're talking about. And the rest of us inside the states which have petitions know it.

And they're real reason for doing this is because Obama won the election; never let any of them tell you otherwise.


Minorities can speak, but majorities have to also. That point of view you have. You know who else had the point of view to let the minority throw their little tantrum and keep quiet because it would not account to anything? Germans. In the 1930s. And that led to Hitler getting control. People assume whoever is talking the loudest has the most supporters.
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#26 Snow

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:40 PM

Thanks Kensai.
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#27 Germanicus

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:45 PM

[QUOTE=Holy Kensai,Nov 15 2012, 12:39 PM][QUOTE=Germanicus,Nov 15 2012, 04:37 PM]

Minorities can speak, but majorities have to also. That point of view you have. You know who else had the point of view to let the minority throw their little tantrum and keep quiet because it would not account to anything? Germans. In the 1930s. And that led to Hitler getting control. People assume whoever is talking the loudest has the most supporters.[/QUOTE]

Come now, don't you think you're overestimating the situation just a tad? The Nazi's gained control through elections, which is different than a state seceding, which is determined by the officials within both the national and state governments, neither of which support secession movements. Just because people who are pro secession are loudest doesn't mean they will immediately, or even in a time, gain any kind of majority within any of their states. Nobody is seceding.

#28 Holy Kensai

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

People vote less in elections about what applies to them personally, but moreso the media at the time.

Turns out it wasn't so much an essay by a German who lived during WW2, but an opinion piece. That is why it was so hard to find. Here is the link.

http://www.israelnat...96#.UKVIYobTC_c

Putting it in a spoiler if you don't wish to go to the site.

Article (Click Here To Hide/Show Text)
“Very few people were true Nazis,” he said, “but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.”

We are told again and again by experts and talking heads that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unquantified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars world wide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or execute honor killings. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard, quantifiable fact is that the “peaceful majority” is the “silent majority,” and it is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people. The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a war-mongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across Southeast Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians - most killed by sword, shovel and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery? Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were “peace loving”?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt; yet, for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by the fanatics. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because, like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Bosnians, Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians and many others, have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us, watching it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts: the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

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#29 Snow

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:16 PM

QUOTE
People vote less in elections about what applies to them personally, but moreso the media at the time.


I don't understand what this means...
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#30 Germanicus

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:08 PM

QUOTE (Holy Kensai @ Nov 15 2012, 12:57 PM)
People vote less in elections about what applies to them personally, but moreso the media at the time.

Turns out it wasn't so much an essay by a German who lived during WW2, but an opinion piece. That is why it was so hard to find. Here is the link.

http://www.israelnat...96#.UKVIYobTC_c

Putting it in a spoiler if you don't wish to go to the site.

Article (Click Here To Hide/Show Text)
“Very few people were true Nazis,” he said, “but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.”

We are told again and again by experts and talking heads that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unquantified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars world wide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or execute honor killings. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard, quantifiable fact is that the “peaceful majority” is the “silent majority,” and it is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people. The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a war-mongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across Southeast Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians - most killed by sword, shovel and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery? Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were “peace loving”?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt; yet, for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by the fanatics. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because, like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Bosnians, Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians and many others, have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us, watching it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts: the fanatics who threaten our way of life.


This was a good article. It has legitimate points, and it is true that the majority must watch the minority to ensure they are not attempting anything foul. However, I don't believe the secession supporters are the kind of "fanatics" that the Nazis or the extreme Muslims are. They are just people with a different opinion of how a nation would be run. Trust me, if I thought they legitimately threatened the United States in anyway, I would be among the first to take action. Until then, I will consider them fools and continue to watch in amusement. But we are ready, be sure, if they become dangerous. Well, I'm ready, at least. I can't speak for others. Thanks for sharing that article, by the way; I didn't really think of those situations in those respects.


#31 Holy Kensai

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:53 PM

QUOTE (Snow @ Nov 15 2012, 05:16 PM)
QUOTE
People vote less in elections about what applies to them personally, but moreso the media at the time.


I don't understand what this means...


Let me expand that. People vote according to what they believe is more popular, in that they vote for that which they believe is right. What the majority believes is right depends on the media and who is putting up the most fuss.

QUOTE (Germanicus @ Nov 15 2012, 06:08 PM)

This was a good article. It has legitimate points, and it is true that the majority must watch the minority to ensure they are not attempting anything foul. However, I don't believe the secession supporters are the kind of "fanatics" that the Nazis or the extreme Muslims are. They are just people with a different opinion of how a nation would be run. Trust me, if I thought they legitimately threatened the United States in anyway, I would be among the first to take action. Until then, I will consider them fools and continue to watch in amusement. But we are ready, be sure, if they become dangerous. Well, I'm ready, at least. I can't speak for others. Thanks for sharing that article, by the way; I didn't really think of those situations in those respects.


Aren't they though? Think about this scary fact. Romney was actually in the running to be president. Has it not gone far enough?

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#32 Germanicus

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:56 PM

Because he was the better man for the job. Obama is a terrible president.

#33 Holy Kensai

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:59 PM

So a man who wants to tax the poor not the rich, take away rights from gays and women, and generally cannot keep a stance on a topic is what makes a good president? So much for a united America.

Let's just ignore the fact that Bush ****ed the states up so much Obama had a huge mess to clean up. And let's ignore the fact that the opposition keep backstabbing Obama and refused to compromise even a little. Let's ignore the fact that Obama somehow managed to stop the waterfall the debt was and is starting to fix it. Yeah. Let's just ignore how Obama has been the best president in decades.
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#34 Germanicus

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:05 PM

QUOTE (Holy Kensai @ Nov 15 2012, 02:59 PM)
So a man who wants to tax the poor not the rich, take away rights from gays and women, and generally cannot keep a stance on a topic is what makes a good president? So much for a united America.

Let's just ignore the fact that Bush ****ed the states up so much Obama had a huge mess to clean up. And let's ignore the fact that the opposition keep backstabbing Obama and refused to compromise even a little. Let's ignore the fact that Obama somehow managed to stop the waterfall the debt was and is starting to fix it. Yeah. Let's just ignore how Obama has been the best president in decades.


Please, christ, do you not see how much Obama's plans will screw us over in the long term? We can't afford the third great entitlement plan he just enacted, seeing as it will bankrupt us even more. The debt is still spiraling out of control. It's worse then it was; much worse. And he's doing nothing to change that.

Compromise? Who's not willing to compromise? Obama won't meet the GOP in the middle for even a second. Every major legislation he made while in office was made with practically NO BIPARTISAN SUPPORT. And the opposition was unwilling to compromise, haha.

Nobody has taken rights away from gays and women. They have the same amount of rights as they have had. Is the Gay marriage rights a problem? Yes. Is it as bad as the economy? Hell no! Obama's economic policies will literally send us back over the fiscal cliff. We didn't even give Romney a chance. And it wasn't Bush alone that screwed us over. The primary blame lies on the Housing Market and Clinton's deregulation of the housing market which helped kick off the 2008 recession. That's the primary cause of the economic downfall we have.

#35 Snow

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:19 PM

Ok now I don't know about how the US got so in debt but I do feel the need to point out something:

QUOTE
Is the Gay marriage rights a problem? Yes. Is it as bad as the economy? Hell no!

This is actually something that I think we can't decide. I personally believe you're right, the economy is more important right now then the gay marriage problem, but it all depends on the individual. You cannot, objectively speaking, prove that a problem in the economy is worse then the marriage issue. This is just my opinion BTW, I at least believe this because it is hard, if not impossible, to decide which is more important. It all depends on your point of view, which is more important to you, a rights issue or a monetary issue?

P.S. Hopefully that came out right.
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#36 Germanicus

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:23 PM

QUOTE (Snow @ Nov 15 2012, 03:19 PM)
Ok now I don't know about how the US got so in debt but I do feel the need to point out something:

QUOTE
Is the Gay marriage rights a problem? Yes. Is it as bad as the economy? Hell no!

This is actually something that I think we can't decide. I personally believe you're right, the economy is more important right now then the gay marriage problem, but it all depends on the individual. You cannot, objectively speaking, prove that a problem in the economy is worse then the marriage issue. This is just my opinion BTW, I at least believe this because it is hard, if not impossible, to decide which is more important. It all depends on your point of view, which is more important to you, a rights issue or a monetary issue?

P.S. Hopefully that came out right.


Well received, and like I said, the equality of gays to marry is a serious problem which should be addressed. Like you said, individuals decide what is most important to themselves. I was just expressing my own thoughts as well. Honestly I'm tired of talking about it now, because election season is over anyway. And most of these things are in the past. All we can do now is move forward.

#37 Swordsalmon

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:46 AM

QUOTE (Holy Kensai @ Nov 15 2012, 02:33 PM)

Mostly racism and religion, which are practically the same thing.


Wat.

Again, the "secession issue" isn't an issue at all. Silly people making silly petitions, news at 11.

#38 Holy Kensai

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:15 AM

QUOTE (Germanicus @ Nov 15 2012, 07:05 PM)

Please, christ, do you not see how much Obama's plans will screw us over in the long term? We can't afford the third great entitlement plan he just enacted, seeing as it will bankrupt us even more. The debt is still spiraling out of control. It's worse then it was; much worse. And he's doing nothing to change that.

Compromise? Who's not willing to compromise? Obama won't meet the GOP in the middle for even a second. Every major legislation he made while in office was made with practically NO BIPARTISAN SUPPORT. And the opposition was unwilling to compromise, haha.

Nobody has taken rights away from gays and women. They have the same amount of rights as they have had. Is the Gay marriage rights a problem? Yes. Is it as bad as the economy? Hell no! Obama's economic policies will literally send us back over the fiscal cliff. We didn't even give Romney a chance. And it wasn't Bush alone that screwed us over. The primary blame lies on the Housing Market and Clinton's deregulation of the housing market which helped kick off the 2008 recession. That's the primary cause of the economic downfall we have.


Actually no. Obama's plans operate on simple economics logic. Take a class on macroeconomics. Obama stopped the recession from becoming a depression.

The opposition will not compromise. Obama learned his lesson and stopped compromising. Now they play the victim.

Romney wanted to. Economists saw the American recession coming for years.

This seems to be mostly an issue of you either not being well informed, or ignoring any information that contradicts your ideals.
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#39 Zepher Tensho

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

I still laugh at how people think Obama's plan will ruin us, when all of Europe is ecstatic that Obama was re-elected, because they all believe his economic plan is best. That should tell you something. Romney was only going to cater to the rich. We all know this. He himself is a richie and a tax dodger. He's been rich his whole life. And we were supposed to let him run the nations economics, and expect him to understand the middle class? Please.

And Kensai is right. Since Obama got in, the automobile industry went from about to tank, to back on its feet. The housing market is up as well. Over 5 million new jobs have been created. You can't take the mess that Bush spent 8 years making, then blame Obama for not fixing it in 4. The economy is delicate. Its hard to fix. No single president will fix it in 4. Even Romney said that his plan would fix it in 10 years. Yet he himself critisised Obama for not fixing it in 4. Hypocrite much?
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#40 Oblivion Knight

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:34 AM

QUOTE (Holy Kensai @ Nov 15 2012, 05:59 PM)
Let's just ignore the fact that Bush ****ed the states up so much Obama had a huge mess to clean up.


You mean how much Clinton ****ed up that Bush had to deal with? Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from.
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